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Old 10-27-2010, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,491,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
the terrorists were born in Saudi, but they and Bin Laden were in exile from Saudi, whose govt they hoped (and hope) to overthrow. SA has in fact cracked down on local AQ.

SA needs weaponry, given its proximity to Iran. To refuse to sell weapons to SA,due to the actions of Saudis who were enemies of the Saudi govt, would be only a gift to Iran.
(this is the last post I'm doing here. I don't do politics and this is the religion and philosophy forum)


Voigt wondered whether it was a wise move. "The region is not suffering from a lack of arms, but from a lack of stability," he said. "I have strong doubts whether stability could be achieved with these weapons."~~Arming the Middle East: The Checkered History of American Weapons Deals - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Well, Saudi Foreign Minister, Saud al-Faisal, looks happy () about the whole thing, in this pic.

(and the guy in the background looks sad, or sheepish. I can't tell)




 
Old 10-27-2010, 02:23 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,803 posts, read 10,714,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldawg82 View Post
Because terrorism isn't being done by just a few. It's foot soldiers, financier's and supporters number well over 25% of all Islam. Look up Wahabbism and check out the estimates on how many Muslims were partying on the streets of their cities when they found out about the 9/11 attacks. That number was in the hundreds of thousands. And, no - no one should hate the people - but we can certainly hate the practice/beliefs and be wary of those who practice them. There isn't any phobia here, just good old awareness.

I doubt, even now, that Wahabis are actually over 25% of all muslims. I would want a cite on that. And of course not all wahabis support AQ. Once again, the Saudi security forces (presumably mostly wahabis) have killed or arrested a considerable number of AQ terrorists.
 
Old 10-27-2010, 02:30 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,803 posts, read 10,714,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
(this is the last post I'm doing here. I don't do politics and this is the religion and philosophy forum)


Voigt wondered whether it was a wise move. "The region is not suffering from a lack of arms, but from a lack of stability," he said. "I have strong doubts whether stability could be achieved with these weapons."~~Arming the Middle East: The Checkered History of American Weapons Deals - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

he said it wasnt democratic, and so bred terrorism.

Sorry to tell you this, but the idea that spreading democracy in the Islamic world stops terrorism, went out of fashion with no documentation mortgages, Yahoo as a search engine, and other artifacts of the pre-2005 world. Sorry if Voight didnt get the message.

And even if you DO believe that democracy in Iraq or Eqypt would help (it doesnt seem to have helped Pakistan, though Indonesia is still the model for where it does work, kinda, sorta) would it work in Saudi? I mean the voting population in Saudi is probably as fundie muslim as any in the arab world, no? And even if Saudi democracy were a good thing, would denying them weapons sales make them a democracy? Anytime soon?

If the Germans really care about US German cooperation, let them stop pushing pseudoausterity that is hurting the world economy, instead of lecturing us when we sell arms to a country living in the shadow of iran, a state that is pursuing the destruction of Israel and is pursuing nuclear weapons


As for this:

"The region is not suffering from a lack of arms, but from a lack of stability," he said. "I have strong doubts whether stability could be achieved with these weapons"

The region is suffering from the aggressiveness and extremism of Iran.
 
Old 10-27-2010, 02:32 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,426,292 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
True in a way, but it's a tad misleading.

Jesus and the Apostles did not lead armies. If you compare the first two centuries of Christianity to the first two centuries of Islam then Christianity comes out way less violent.

I think a Muslim could argue that Islam accomplished more in its first two centuries. That yes there were Muslim armies, etc but that these helped minority Christians who were oppressed by the Byzantines and that the Caliphate revitalized an area in decline due to decadent/decaying empires. Still I don't think they could plausibly make the argument it was less violent than Christianity pre-Constantine. And considering the treatment of Zoroastrians and polytheists in the first two centuries of Islam I'm not sure they could argue it caused less destruction either.

There's a bit of truth in the good and the bad. Early Islam built a civilization that revitalized knowledge, advanced astronomy, helped transmit the ideas of China and India to Europe, and treated Jews better than early Christianity did. Early Islam also led armies that killed thousands, oppressed Zoroastrians, looted from people, exiled entire tribes, and violently fought amongst itself.

Christianity was not violent just in its early history. As long as the European governments were in power and Christian there was much violence against non Christians up to the modern era.
 
Old 10-27-2010, 10:40 PM
 
Location: anchorage
306 posts, read 261,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Christianity was not violent just in its early history. As long as the European governments were in power and Christian there was much violence against non Christians up to the modern era.
i thought i was out of this post. early christianity was pure and good. jesus never did or say a violent thing. the european religion that came later was the goverment of europe controlling the people thru fear. fear of going to hell or being killed by the goverment in the name of the church. this is why america came about so early american settlers could practice a free religion without the goverment getting involved. goverment out of religion, not religion out of goverment. we need to somehow get back to what the founders intended.
 
Old 10-27-2010, 11:13 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,426,292 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo700 View Post
i thought i was out of this post. early christianity was pure and good. jesus never did or say a violent thing. the european religion that came later was the goverment of europe controlling the people thru fear. fear of going to hell or being killed by the goverment in the name of the church. this is why america came about so early american settlers could practice a free religion without the goverment getting involved. goverment out of religion, not religion out of goverment. we need to somehow get back to what the founders intended.

Sure Jesus might have been pure and good.... But the Christians who came after him were not. History attests to that. The folks committing the violent acts absolutely did it in the name of Christianity. So we can say it was governments, but they were Christian. Governments supporting the Christian religious establishment worked hand in hand.


The European Christian Governments killed many many non Christians. The Catholic church made it possible for all those Christians to be ok killing non Christians. Muslims, Jews, heretics, all who were deemed not fit to live.
 
Old 10-28-2010, 12:00 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,884 posts, read 31,769,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo700 View Post
i thought i was out of this post. early christianity was pure and good. jesus never did or say a violent thing. the european religion that came later was the goverment of europe controlling the people thru fear. fear of going to hell or being killed by the goverment in the name of the church. this is why america came about so early american settlers could practice a free religion without the goverment getting involved. goverment out of religion, not religion out of goverment. we need to somehow get back to what the founders intended.
Right, but they couldn't do that until they had stolen the land from the people who lived in the Americas, killed most of them off and shoved the one they didn't kill onto reservations...Christianity non violent? Yeah right, in a pigs eye.

American Indian Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Old 10-28-2010, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 21,981,222 times
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turbo700: Yes, religion out of government! The Founders intended religious freedom, which means exactly that.
 
Old 10-28-2010, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Moving through this etheria
430 posts, read 514,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth light View Post
To hate a whole group based on untruths makes no sense
Islamophobia is a great joke

(1) 2:256
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
[LEFT]
(2) 18:29
And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place

Tolerance of Muslims is unlimitted compared to what is committed against them today
What an odd conclusion. I find Islam's practiced lack of tolerance for either other religions or atheism to be "intolerable"

As well, I'm confused by your two supporting quotes above, which I've numbered and highlighted in red above. They do seem to contradict each other. The first says there's no compulsion to believe in Islam, while the second says the wrongdoers shall be fed a wretched, murky and scalding drink. Nice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo700 View Post
nomad,
you cant even compare the two. when was the last time a group christians strapped bombs on themselves and walked into a crowded market place or hijacked commercial jets and flew them into buildings of innocent people. not to mention that they treat their women like dogs. christianty is about love and forgiveness and radical islam is about hate.
Perhaps you didn't hear about Timothy McVeigh, the Christian terririst and the Alfred Murrah Building in Oklahoma City? From Wikipediai:

"McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic. During his childhood, he and his father attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York. In a March, 1996, interview with Time magazine, McVeigh professed his belief in "a God""

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo700 View Post
i thought i was out of this post. early christianity was pure and good. jesus never did or say a violent thing. the european religion that came later was the goverment of europe controlling the people thru fear. fear of going to hell or being killed by the goverment in the name of the church. this is why america came about so early american settlers could practice a free religion without the goverment getting involved. goverment out of religion, not religion out of goverment. we need to somehow get back to what the founders intended.
Perhaps you didn't hear about The Spanish Inquisition conducted with the blessing of the Church? As well, the early times of Jesus were indeed fraught with violence against and within Christians, Jews, Arabs and anyone else who got in the way of socio-theistic hegemony.

Many Christian apologists have a rather biased and sanitized Selective view on their glorious religion.
 
Old 10-28-2010, 04:20 PM
 
40,081 posts, read 26,744,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibumi View Post
What an odd conclusion. I find Islam's practiced lack of tolerance for either other religions or atheism to be "intolerable"

As well, I'm confused by your two supporting quotes above, which I've numbered and highlighted in red above. They do seem to contradict each other. The first says there's no compulsion to believe in Islam, while the second says the wrongdoers shall be fed a wretched, murky and scalding drink. Nice!



Perhaps you didn't hear about Timothy McVeigh, the Christian terririst and the Alfred Murrah Building in Oklahoma City?
This is such disingenuous Horsesh*t. McVeigh's actions had NOTHING to do with his religion . . . but every single Muslim barbarian who has blown himself up has done so precisely BECAUSE of his religion. As for the history of Christianity . . . stop living in the past and focus on today's problems today. Islam is a barbaric cultural atrocity that needs to either be brought into the 21st century quickly or opposed at every opportunity until it is but a barbaric anachronistic minority of whack-a-doos.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 10-28-2010 at 04:33 PM..
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