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Old 11-08-2010, 12:51 PM
 
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Umm.

It seems that some people trying to evoke a topic then retreat

Actually, it's better for them
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Old 11-08-2010, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
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I wonder if you can explain this:

"Those who believe [in the Qur'an], and those who follow the Jewish [Scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians, any one who believe in God and the last day, and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Sura 2:62).

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam [Submission to God] he will be in the ranks of those who lost all spiritual good" (Sura 3:85)

I wonder if you could possibly explain the contradiction in these two verses?
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Old 11-08-2010, 05:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
Konraden . when i asked you to find for me errors in quran to discuss it , i told you to bring one of them which you yourself convinced that it's error
Which is where we need a third party arbiter. How do we define an error? A contradiction? A mistake?

Quote:
you can quote from these links whatever you want , but you need to be convinced with it because you will be the one who is responsible of what you write
Skeptics Annotated Bible, Quran, and Book of Morman are all easy to follow and well cited. If you want, I can pull a few out of their lists. But without a working definition of what constitutes significant problems--particularly because the "the Quran can't be wrong" attitude demand we have definitions.
Quote:
Konraden / i agree with you that if we have third party to manage the challenge will be the best for all of us

i just say that in the case we havn't third party , will we make it off topic ?
i have no problem , it wasn't me who raise this challange about errors of quran in the first place

anyway , i'm ready any time , tell me when you feel yourself ready for it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth light View Post
Umm.

It seems that some people trying to evoke a topic then retreat

Actually, it's better for them
It's merely an issue of determining what constitutes mistakes, flaws, contradictions, etc. Give me a solid rule for those, and I'll point them out.
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Old 11-09-2010, 04:22 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,243 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
I wonder if you can explain this:


"Those who believe [in the Qur'an], and those who follow the Jewish [Scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians, any one who believe in God and the last day, and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Sura 2:62).


"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam [Submission to God] he will be in the ranks of those who lost all spiritual good" (Sura 3:85)

I wonder if you could possibly explain the contradiction in these two verses?
let us first agree that according to quran , islam is the relegion of all prophets from Adam to mohammed (pbut) .
mohammed ( pbuh) is just the final prophet for the same relegion
let us agree that we consider the true followers of christ as muslims , and we consider the true followers of moses as muslims

so the relegion of islam not attached to followers of mohammed (pbuh) alone in general meaning , followers of christ and abraham and moses named as muslims as well in quran and may be in the bible either

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

2:62 Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.


According to this verse , the righteous people from the true followers of mosas (muslims) and true followers of jesus (muslims) will have their Great Reward from Allah Almighty and will enter Paradise

the same criteria can be applied to muslims themself , as for not everyone says i'm muslim and follower to mohammed (pbuh) is rightly guided by the true teaching of mohammed (pbuh)


do you still see any contradictions ?

Last edited by elwill; 11-09-2010 at 04:38 AM..
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Old 11-09-2010, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
let us first agree that according to quran , islam is the relegion of all prophets from Adam to mohammed (pbut) .
mohammed ( pbuh) is just the final prophet for the same relegion
let us agree that we consider the true followers of christ as muslims , and we consider the true followers of moses as muslims

so the relegion of islam not attached to followers of mohammed (pbuh) alone in general meaning , followers of christ and abraham and moses named as muslims as well in quran and may be in the bible either

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

2:62 Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.


According to this verse , the righteous people from the true followers of mosas (muslims) and true followers of jesus (muslims) will have their Great Reward from Allah Almighty and will enter Paradise

the same criteria can be applied to muslims themself , as for not everyone says i'm muslim and follower to mohammed (pbuh) is rightly guided by the true teaching of mohammed (pbuh)


do you still see any contradictions ?

Yes I do see contradictions, you're saying that those that are the followers of the Jewish Scriptures and the Christians and the Sabians are all Muslims when the verse clearly states that they are Jews, Christians, and Sabians, (they are three different entities and beliefs), shall have their reward and no fear, nor shall they grieve (Sura 2:62). The second verse (Sura 3:85) says just the opposite. Now I would call that a contradiction, would you not?
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:33 AM
 
Location: egypt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
Yes I do see contradictions, you're saying that those that are the followers of the Jewish Scriptures and the Christians and the Sabians are all Muslims when the verse clearly states that they are Jews, Christians, and Sabians, (they are three different entities and beliefs), shall have their reward and no fear, nor shall they grieve (Sura 2:62). The second verse (Sura 3:85) says just the opposite. Now I would call that a contradiction, would you not?
no i didn't says that jews and christians are muslims , i said that the true followers of previous prophets considered muslims in quran

And, "He (Allah) has ordained for you the same religion (Islam) which He ordained for Nūh (Noah), and that which We have inspired in you (O Muhammad), and that which We ordained for Ibrahīm (Abraham), Mūsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus) saying you should establish religion (i.e. to do what it orders you to do practically), and make no divisions in it (religion) (i.e. various sects in religion). Intolerable for the Mushrikūn (polytheists) , is that to which you (O Muhammad) call them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills, and guides unto Himself who turns to Him in repentance and in obedience. [Qur'an, 42:13]

my concern wa about clarifying the second verse
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam [Submission to God] he will be in the ranks of those who lost all spiritual good" (Sura 3:85)

i wanted to show you the defination of islam according to quran , so this verse not limited to followers of mohammed (pbuh) because according to quran all prophets and all true followers existed before muhammed named as muslims and thier relegion named as islam

which means that if you found another verse which says that those who followed christ and those who followed moses thier relegion will be accepted , it dosn't contradict the verse which say that islam is the only relegion accepted y God
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
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Okay I think we have a misunderstanding here, if I understand what you're saying and I could be wrong, you're saying that all of those who believed in the prophets before Mohammed would be accepted according to the Qur'an and that (Sura 3:85) does not contradict (Sura 2:62). Not trying to be disrespectful, merely asking the question to get a better clarification on the differences in these two verses.
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Old 11-09-2010, 11:26 AM
 
Location: egypt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
Okay I think we have a misunderstanding here, if I understand what you're saying and I could be wrong, you're saying that all of those who believed in the prophets before Mohammed would be accepted according to the Qur'an and that (Sura 3:85) does not contradict (Sura 2:62). Not trying to be disrespectful, merely asking the question to get a better clarification on the differences in these two verses.
not exactly all of them

"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. (The Noble Quran, 3:199)"

"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 3:113-114)"


Ye [Muslims] are the best of peoples evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in God. If only the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (The Noble Quran 3:110)"


"They do blaspheme who say: 'Allah is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.' Whoever joins other gods with Allah - Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help. (The Holy Quran, 5:72)"

now read these verses again , can you see the harmoney between the verses

"Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (The Noble Quran, 2:112)"

"Those who believe , and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (The Noble Quran, 2:62)"


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
for deeper understaning for the word " islam" according to quran (muslims always says that quran describes itself )

i showed you verse which says that allah revealed to mohammed the same relgion which he revealed to other prophets , right !

And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad (pbuh)) but We inspired him (saying): La ilaha illa Ana (none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allah)), so worship Me (Alone and none else)." Al-Anbiya 21:25

this is the core massage of islam and this is the relegion which God will accept

now , i will give you the prophets who are called muslims by quran

Prophet Abraham
When his Lord said to him, "Submit (aslem , be a muslim )!" He said, "I have submitted myself (aslamt) to the Lord of the Alameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists).“ Al-Baqara 2:131

Abraham & Isaac said
Our Lord! And make us submissive (muslimayn) unto You and of our offspring a nation submissive (muslimahtan) unto You, and show us our Manasik (all the ceremonies of pilgrimage - Hajj and Umrah, etc.), and accept our repentance. Al-Baqara 2:128

Queen of Sheba accepted Religion of Solomon:
She said: "My Lord! Verily, I have wronged myself, and I submit (aslamt , became a muslim) together with Sulaiman (Solomon), to Allah, the Lord of the Alameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists). An-Naml 24:44

Prophet Moses said
10:84 And Moses said, "O my people, if you have believed in Allah, then rely upon Him, if you should be Muslims."

Prophet Iesa (Jesus) said:
3:52 Then when Iesa (Jesus) came to know of their disbelief, he said: "Who will be my helpers in Allahs Cause?" Al-Hawarioon (the disciples) said: "We are the helpers of Allah; we believe in Allah, and bear witness that we are Muslims (i.e. we submit to Allah).

Prophet Iesa said
َّ43:64 Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. This is a straight path.

Prophet Mohammad said:
3:20 So if they dispute with you (Muhammad (pbuh)) say: "I have submitted myself to Allah (in Islam), and (so have) those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and to those who are illiterates (Arab pagans): "Do you (also) submit yourselves (to Allah in Islam)?" If they do, they are rightly guided;


when you then read this verse , will you have clear understanding for it
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam [Submission to God] he will be in the ranks of those who lost all spiritual good" (Sura 3:85)





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Old 11-09-2010, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
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elwill, with all due respect, you still have not explained the differences between the two verses that I posted in the beginning, you keep posting different quotes and verses from the Qur'an that does not answer my question in regards to (Sura 2:62 & Sura 3:85). I see contradictions between these two verses and although I appreciate the fact that you know the Qur'an very well, I am not a student of that sacred book nor am I looking to convert to Islam, as a Native American I am merely asking you, in your own words, to explain to me the differences of these particular verses and why the contradictions.
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Old 11-09-2010, 01:46 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,243 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
elwill, with all due respect, you still have not explained the differences between the two verses that I posted in the beginning, you keep posting different quotes and verses from the Qur'an that does not answer my question in regards to (Sura 2:62 & Sura 3:85). I see contradictions between these two verses and although I appreciate the fact that you know the Qur'an very well, I am not a student of that sacred book nor am I looking to convert to Islam, as a Native American I am merely asking you, in your own words, to explain to me the differences of these particular verses and why the contradictions.

correct me if i'm wrong
do you think that the first verse says that christians and jews will be rewarded in afterlife for their faith
while the second verse says that only muslims will be accepted

is that the contradiction which you see in both verses ?
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