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Old 12-23-2010, 03:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth light View Post
100 years after his passing !
Does this sound normal?!

Yeah it does. But then you have not looked at any of my websites?

Whether it was written 100 years after his passing is not the point. The point is it was written well after he died and that means it was written down by what was remembered or memorized. Anytime that happens you don't have something transmitted straight to one person.

You have the revelation to Muhammad to his companions and finally written down. It passed to many who carried it around in their memory and what was written down in parts and all of that was brought together and codified into the Qur'an.


Allah to Muhammad to all his companions then written down after it was all brought together into the Qur'an you have today.

Last edited by Jazzymom; 12-23-2010 at 04:18 PM..
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Old 12-23-2010, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth light View Post
Are you serious ?!
I ask the question and in the context of the question I ask that if I'm wrong to be correct and I do so with respect because of a lack of knowledge on the history of your sacred book on my part and you disrespect me? Rather than making the statement that you did why not, with respect, correct my mistake so that I too may learn if I'm wrong.
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:37 PM
 
Location: egypt
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Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
okay, Muslims claim, and correct me if I'm wrong and no disrespect here, that their sacred book was given to them by your prophet Mohammed and yet the words were not written down until almost 100 years after his passing and those words were written by somebody else, is it not possible that those who wrote those words were giving it their own interpretation and not that of your prophet Mohammed?
The first compilation took place within two years after the Prophet passed away. during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr

but u asked good question here . is it possible that those who wrote these words giving it their own interpretation ?

Let us recall some established historical facts:
Upon receiving revelation, the Prophet (p) engaged himself in the duty of conveying the message to his Companions through reciting the exact words he heard in their exact order.

The Prophet (p) encouraged his Companions to learn each verse that was revealed and transmit it to others [3]. The Qur'an was also required to be recited regularly as an act of worship, especially during the daily meditative prayers (salat). Through these means, many repeatedly heard passages from the revelation recited to them, memorized them and used them in prayer. The entire Qur’an was memorized verbatim (word for word) by some of the Prophet’s Companions. Among them were Zaid ibn Thabit, Ubayy ibn Ka’b, Mu’adh ibn Jabal, and Abu Zaid


The codification of the Qur’an (i.e. into a ‘book form’) was done soon after the Battle of Yamama (11AH/633CE), after the Prophet’s death, during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr. Many companions became martyrs at that battle and it was feared that unless a written copy of the entire revelation was produced, large parts of the Qur’an might be lost with the death of those who had memorized it. Therefore, at the suggestion of Umar to collect the Qur’an in the form of writing, Zaid ibn Thabit was requested by Abu Bakr to head a committee which would gather together the scattered recordings of the Qur’an and prepare a suhuf - loose sheets which bore the entire revelation on them [15]. To safeguard the compilation from errors, the committee accepted only material which had been written down in the presence of the Prophet (p) himself, and which could be verified by at least two reliable witnesses who had actually heard the Prophet (p) recite the passage in question [16]. Once completed and unanimously approved of by the Prophet’s Companions, these sheets were kept with the Caliph Abu Bakr (d. 13AH/634CE), then passed on to the Caliph Umar (13-23AH/634-644CE), and then Umar’s daughter and the Prophet’s widow, Hafsa
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
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elwill, I thank you for your respect in answering my question and enlightening me to the process of your sacred book. I see that the tradition of your oral stories is much the same as the oral stories, traditions and legends that have been passed down much the same way in my culture for many hundreds of thousands of years and I can respect that, now that is not to say that I believe in your sacred book or your prophet Mohammed or your Allah but I can respect that you have that belief.wa-do... you see this is all I ask, is a civil conversation between two individuals of different beliefs, the exchange of knowledge is very important to alleviating some of the misconceptions about one another.
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Old 12-23-2010, 05:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
The first compilation took place within two years after the Prophet passed away. during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr

but u asked good question here . is it possible that those who wrote these words giving it their own interpretation ?

Let us recall some established historical facts:
Upon receiving revelation, the Prophet (p) engaged himself in the duty of conveying the message to his Companions through reciting the exact words he heard in their exact order.

The Prophet (p) encouraged his Companions to learn each verse that was revealed and transmit it to others [3]. The Qur'an was also required to be recited regularly as an act of worship, especially during the daily meditative prayers (salat). Through these means, many repeatedly heard passages from the revelation recited to them, memorized them and used them in prayer. The entire Qur’an was memorized verbatim (word for word) by some of the Prophet’s Companions. Among them were Zaid ibn Thabit, Ubayy ibn Ka’b, Mu’adh ibn Jabal, and Abu Zaid


The codification of the Qur’an (i.e. into a ‘book form’) was done soon after the Battle of Yamama (11AH/633CE), after the Prophet’s death, during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr. Many companions became martyrs at that battle and it was feared that unless a written copy of the entire revelation was produced, large parts of the Qur’an might be lost with the death of those who had memorized it. Therefore, at the suggestion of Umar to collect the Qur’an in the form of writing, Zaid ibn Thabit was requested by Abu Bakr to head a committee which would gather together the scattered recordings of the Qur’an and prepare a suhuf - loose sheets which bore the entire revelation on them [15]. To safeguard the compilation from errors, the committee accepted only material which had been written down in the presence of the Prophet (p) himself, and which could be verified by at least two reliable witnesses who had actually heard the Prophet (p) recite the passage in question [16]. Once completed and unanimously approved of by the Prophet’s Companions, these sheets were kept with the Caliph Abu Bakr (d. 13AH/634CE), then passed on to the Caliph Umar (13-23AH/634-644CE), and then Umar’s daughter and the Prophet’s widow, Hafsa

It was again revised by the 3rd caliph Uthman Ibn Affan which became the official standardized version and all previous versions were burned. So it was changed after Abu Bakr's version.

9th century Qur'an manuscript.
In about 650, as Islam expanded beyond the Arabian peninsula into Persia, the Levant and North Africa, the third caliph Uthman ibn Affan ordered the preparation of an official, standardized version, to preserve the sanctity of the text (and perhaps to keep the Rashidun Empire united, see Uthman Qur'an). Five reciters from amongst the companions produced a unique text from the first volume, which had been prepared on the orders of Abu Bakr and was kept with Hafsa bint Umar. The other copies already in the hands of Muslims in other areas were collected and sent to Medina where, on orders of the Caliph, they were destroyed by burning or boiling. This remains the authoritative text of the Qur’an to this day.[35][40][41]
The Qur’an in its present form is generally considered by academic scholars to record the words spoken by Muhammad because the search for variants in Western academia has not yielded any differences of great significance and because, historically, controversy over the content of the Qur’an has never become a main point.[42]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an
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Old 12-23-2010, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
It was again revised by the 3rd caliph Uthman Ibn Affan which became the official standardized version and all previous versions were burned. So it was changed after Abu Bakr's version.

9th century Qur'an manuscript.
In about 650, as Islam expanded beyond the Arabian peninsula into Persia, the Levant and North Africa, the third caliph Uthman ibn Affan ordered the preparation of an official, standardized version, to preserve the sanctity of the text (and perhaps to keep the Rashidun Empire united, see Uthman Qur'an). Five reciters from amongst the companions produced a unique text from the first volume, which had been prepared on the orders of Abu Bakr and was kept with Hafsa bint Umar. The other copies already in the hands of Muslims in other areas were collected and sent to Medina where, on orders of the Caliph, they were destroyed by burning or boiling. This remains the authoritative text of the Qur’an to this day.[35][40][41]
The Qur’an in its present form is generally considered by academic scholars to record the words spoken by Muhammad because the search for variants in Western academia has not yielded any differences of great significance and because, historically, controversy over the content of the Qur’an has never become a main point.[42]


Qur'an - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thank you Jazzymom, I have learned that the sacred book of Islam seems to have almost as many different versions of itself as the Christian sacred book does, I think the difference being is that the Islamic sacred book may have stayed truer to its original version than the Christian sacred book did to itself, is that true or not?
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Old 12-23-2010, 07:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
Thank you Jazzymom, I have learned that the sacred book of Islam seems to have almost as many different versions of itself as the Christian sacred book does, I think the difference being is that the Islamic sacred book may have stayed truer to its original version than the Christian sacred book did to itself, is that true or not?

You would be correct. I think the Hebrew Tanakh had many writers and it spans a much larger time span. Once it was codified it has not changed. The Hebrew Torah scrolls that are used in synagogues are all the same in how they are written. The Christian Old Testament comes from the Hebrew Scripture/ Tanakh and they have added and changed it around too. I believe much of the Christian Bible comes from the Greek septuagant. The Qur'an in its Arabic is uniform in how it is written but you will find many different translations.

I think what Muslims want people to think is that the revelation was given to Muhammad and then it was memorized and written down once and has not changed at all.

I actually added 3 links in an earlier post that talks a bit about how the Qur'an was codified and one of the links actually talks about a much earlier Qur'an that was uncovered.
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:43 PM
 
439 posts, read 483,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
The first compilation took place within two years after the Prophet passed away. during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr

but u asked good question here . is it possible that those who wrote these words giving it their own interpretation ?

Let us recall some established historical facts:
Upon receiving revelation, the Prophet (p) engaged himself in the duty of conveying the message to his Companions through reciting the exact words he heard in their exact order.

The Prophet (p) encouraged his Companions to learn each verse that was revealed and transmit it to others [3]. The Qur'an was also required to be recited regularly as an act of worship, especially during the daily meditative prayers (salat). Through these means, many repeatedly heard passages from the revelation recited to them, memorized them and used them in prayer. The entire Qur’an was memorized verbatim (word for word) by some of the Prophet’s Companions. Among them were Zaid ibn Thabit, Ubayy ibn Ka’b, Mu’adh ibn Jabal, and Abu Zaid


The codification of the Qur’an (i.e. into a ‘book form’) was done soon after the Battle of Yamama (11AH/633CE), after the Prophet’s death, during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr. Many companions became martyrs at that battle and it was feared that unless a written copy of the entire revelation was produced, large parts of the Qur’an might be lost with the death of those who had memorized it. Therefore, at the suggestion of Umar to collect the Qur’an in the form of writing, Zaid ibn Thabit was requested by Abu Bakr to head a committee which would gather together the scattered recordings of the Qur’an and prepare a suhuf - loose sheets which bore the entire revelation on them [15]. To safeguard the compilation from errors, the committee accepted only material which had been written down in the presence of the Prophet (p) himself, and which could be verified by at least two reliable witnesses who had actually heard the Prophet (p) recite the passage in question [16]. Once completed and unanimously approved of by the Prophet’s Companions, these sheets were kept with the Caliph Abu Bakr (d. 13AH/634CE), then passed on to the Caliph Umar (13-23AH/634-644CE), and then Umar’s daughter and the Prophet’s widow, Hafsa

very well done
jazak Allah Kheer
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Old 12-24-2010, 01:44 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,042,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
elwill, I thank you for your respect in answering my question and enlightening me to the process of your sacred book. I see that the tradition of your oral stories is much the same as the oral stories, traditions and legends that have been passed down much the same way in my culture for many hundreds of thousands of years and I can respect that, now that is not to say that I believe in your sacred book or your prophet Mohammed or your Allah but I can respect that you have that belief.wa-do... you see this is all I ask, is a civil conversation between two individuals of different beliefs, the exchange of knowledge is very important to alleviating some of the misconceptions about one another.
you are most wellcome
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Old 12-24-2010, 01:57 AM
 
Location: egypt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmessage View Post
very well done
jazak Allah Kheer
wa eyyakom , brother
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