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Old 12-24-2010, 01:59 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
Thank you Jazzymom, I have learned that the sacred book of Islam seems to have almost as many different versions of itself as the Christian sacred book does, I think the difference being is that the Islamic sacred book may have stayed truer to its original version than the Christian sacred book did to itself, is that true or not?
it's not true
theire's only one version for quran in all the world all the times
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Old 12-24-2010, 02:25 AM
 
Location: egypt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
It was again revised by the 3rd caliph Uthman Ibn Affan which became the official standardized version and all previous versions were burned. So it was changed after Abu Bakr's version.

9th century Qur'an manuscript.
In about 650, as Islam expanded beyond the Arabian peninsula into Persia, the Levant and North Africa, the third caliph Uthman ibn Affan ordered the preparation of an official, standardized version, to preserve the sanctity of the text (and perhaps to keep the Rashidun Empire united, see Uthman Qur'an). Five reciters from amongst the companions produced a unique text from the first volume, which had been prepared on the orders of Abu Bakr and was kept with Hafsa bint Umar. The other copies already in the hands of Muslims in other areas were collected and sent to Medina where, on orders of the Caliph, they were destroyed by burning or boiling. This remains the authoritative text of the Qur’an to this day.[35][40][41]
The Qur’an in its present form is generally considered by academic scholars to record the words spoken by Muhammad because the search for variants in Western academia has not yielded any differences of great significance and because, historically, controversy over the content of the Qur’an has never become a main point.[42]


Qur'an - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
When Uthman bin Aaffan (the third disciple) came, Islam was pretty stable in the region, and he had rulership to implement the Quraishi dialect among all the Arabic speaking people in the entire region, and to teach them the Noble Quran through that dialect only.

Important Note: If the Noble Quran is recited in a different dialect than the Quraishi one, and if one tries to write down what he is reciting, he could and would end up with different words in spelling and in some cases in meaning as well than the original copy of the Noble Quran.

When Uthman got hold of all of the Qurans that were written in different dialects, and in some cases were altered to sound exactly like the other dialects, he ordered for them to get burnt because they did not use the proper Arabic that was revealed unto our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, and in some cases their words were different because of this dialect difference. He then compiled all of the Noble Surahs (Chapters) of the Noble Quran that were already written during the time of Prophet Muhammad in the city of Madina and formed what we call today the one true copy of the "Noble Quran".

Upon completion (in 25AH/646CE), Uthman returned the original manuscript to Hafsa and sent the copies to the major Islamic provinces to replace other materials that were in circulation. He also ordered that all other extracts or copies of the Qur’an which differed from that undoubted “official” copy (including incomplete manuscripts and those with additional personal notes) be burnt so that the Qur’an would not suffer alterations, uncertainty of authenticity and contradictory versions which characterized prior religious scriptures.
This action of Uthman was unanimously approved of by the Prophet’s Companions, as evidenced in the accounts of Zaid, Mus’ab, and Ali that the Companions had gathered in large numbers to witness the burning, with no-one speaking out against it. Their accounts also reveal that many had openly declared their support for Uthman at the time, and how pleased they were with the measures he had taken.

when someone try to raise my doubts about compilation of quran be made by Othman , i expect from him to answer me these few questions if he have a knowledge about what he's talking about

? How did he arrive at that text?
On the basis of what text did the first two leaders, Abu Bakr and `Umar governed the Muslim lands before him?
What text people had been using in their daily prayers in Madinah, the city of the Prophet, which consisted almost entirely of Muslims, most having seen and heard the Prophet?
What text was used throughout the land during sermons before the Friday congregational prayers?
How could `Uthman change the text that had been used for twelve years before him in the presence of hundreds of companions of the Prophet who could easily detect any change to the original text and were obligated by religious principles to prevent alterations in the word of God?
And why at all would he want to change it, considering that the extant text says nothing in his favor?
It is also important to keep in mind that the vast Muslim world was not homogeneous. There was as much diversity of opinion as one expects from any group of people. There were even conflicts, some of them armed. `Uthman himself had opposition from some groups, one of which actually martyred him. Had the text he promulgated been less than 100% reliable his opponents would have made it an issue and accused him of changing the word of God. But the fact is that these opponents accused him of many things but we do not have any early reliable tradition, in which they accuse him of changing the word of God.
There is also no evidence that anyone resisted ‘Uthman and was executed for doing so or otherwise persecuted. In fact, several traditions suggest an atmosphere of complete freedom within which promulgation of the so-called ‘Uthmanic text took place .
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:12 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,425,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
When Uthman bin Aaffan (the third disciple) came, Islam was pretty stable in the region, and he had rulership to implement the Quraishi dialect among all the Arabic speaking people in the entire region, and to teach them the Noble Quran through that dialect only.

Important Note: If the Noble Quran is recited in a different dialect than the Quraishi one, and if one tries to write down what he is reciting, he could and would end up with different words in spelling and in some cases in meaning as well than the original copy of the Noble Quran.

When Uthman got hold of all of the Qurans that were written in different dialects, and in some cases were altered to sound exactly like the other dialects, he ordered for them to get burnt because they did not use the proper Arabic that was revealed unto our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, and in some cases their words were different because of this dialect difference. He then compiled all of the Noble Surahs (Chapters) of the Noble Quran that were already written during the time of Prophet Muhammad in the city of Madina and formed what we call today the one true copy of the "Noble Quran".

Upon completion (in 25AH/646CE), Uthman returned the original manuscript to Hafsa and sent the copies to the major Islamic provinces to replace other materials that were in circulation. He also ordered that all other extracts or copies of the Qur’an which differed from that undoubted “official” copy (including incomplete manuscripts and those with additional personal notes) be burnt so that the Qur’an would not suffer alterations, uncertainty of authenticity and contradictory versions which characterized prior religious scriptures.
This action of Uthman was unanimously approved of by the Prophet’s Companions, as evidenced in the accounts of Zaid, Mus’ab, and Ali that the Companions had gathered in large numbers to witness the burning, with no-one speaking out against it. Their accounts also reveal that many had openly declared their support for Uthman at the time, and how pleased they were with the measures he had taken.

when someone try to raise my doubts about compilation of quran be made by Othman , i expect from him to answer me these few questions if he have a knowledge about what he's talking about

? How did he arrive at that text?
On the basis of what text did the first two leaders, Abu Bakr and `Umar governed the Muslim lands before him?
What text people had been using in their daily prayers in Madinah, the city of the Prophet, which consisted almost entirely of Muslims, most having seen and heard the Prophet?
What text was used throughout the land during sermons before the Friday congregational prayers?
How could `Uthman change the text that had been used for twelve years before him in the presence of hundreds of companions of the Prophet who could easily detect any change to the original text and were obligated by religious principles to prevent alterations in the word of God?
And why at all would he want to change it, considering that the extant text says nothing in his favor?
It is also important to keep in mind that the vast Muslim world was not homogeneous. There was as much diversity of opinion as one expects from any group of people. There were even conflicts, some of them armed. `Uthman himself had opposition from some groups, one of which actually martyred him. Had the text he promulgated been less than 100% reliable his opponents would have made it an issue and accused him of changing the word of God. But the fact is that these opponents accused him of many things but we do not have any early reliable tradition, in which they accuse him of changing the word of God.
There is also no evidence that anyone resisted ‘Uthman and was executed for doing so or otherwise persecuted. In fact, several traditions suggest an atmosphere of complete freedom within which promulgation of the so-called ‘Uthmanic text took place .
Take a look at the websites. I listed them again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an

http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/shamoun/compilation%20of%20the%20quran.html (broken link)

http://www.averroespress.com/Averroe...the_Quran.html
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Old 12-24-2010, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
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elwill, it has been suggested and I mean no disrespect, but there are a few chapters in your sacred book that are of great concern, not knowing that much about your sacred book, perhaps you could explain to me and others what chapters 4,5, and 9 are all about. I've been told that they allude to the denunciation of the Christian Jesus and call for the extermination of Jews and Christians, perhaps you could explain this to me so that I can better understand and if it's true or not.
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Old 12-24-2010, 11:06 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
elwill, it has been suggested and I mean no disrespect, but there are a few chapters in your sacred book that are of great concern, not knowing that much about your sacred book, perhaps you could explain to me and others what chapters 4,5, and 9 are all about. I've been told that they allude to the denunciation of the Christian Jesus and call for the extermination of Jews and Christians, perhaps you could explain this to me so that I can better understand and if it's true or not.
chapters 4 , 5 and 9 means we are talking about 85 pages from quran
it will be easier if you read it yourself and give me specific questions
( and you can get help from anti_islamic sites to quote these specific verses )

but let me for now give you the general brief answers
nothing , and i mean nothing in quran call for extermination of people of any relegion , not even the pagans .

may be they refer to this verse
9-29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

actually , this verse is talking about those who refuse to pay theire taxes which be called jeziah (for nonmuslims) and zakaht ( for muslims ) .
it's another issue (you are wellcome if you want to discuss it ) , so it dosn't simply call for the extermination of Jews and Christians


as for christian jesus , quran deny the trinity and deny divinity of jesus but it gives jesus and his mother and the apostles very high respect
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Old 12-24-2010, 11:46 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Take a look at the websites. I listed them again.

Qur'an - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Compilation of The Quran (http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/shamoun/compilation%20of%20the%20quran.html - broken link)

The World of the Quran
thank you for the links Jazzymom , i didn't deny what you quoted from wikipedia in your previous post , beside it dosn't contradict what i said

i clarfied this issue because of your own comment which even not mentioned in the source you quoted
Quote:
It was again revised by the 3rd caliph Uthman Ibn Affan which became the official standardized version and all previous versions were burned. So it was changed after Abu Bakr's version.
i thought you misunderstood what is written so that you thought that Othman compiled different quran than that which was collected by Abu_bakr while in the fact it was mentioned in your source that Five reciters from amongst the companions produced a unique text from the first volume , i just clarifed to you what he did exactly and why and what he burnt exactly and why .

i hope you read my post again
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Old 12-25-2010, 06:56 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,425,900 times
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[quote=elwill;17129341]chapters 4 , 5 and 9 means we are talking about 85 pages from quran
it will be easier if you read it yourself and give me specific questions
( and you can get help from anti_islamic sites to quote these specific verses )

but let me for now give you the general brief answers
nothing , and i mean nothing in quran call for extermination of people of any relegion , not even the pagans .


Elwill you say nothing in the Quran says to kill non believers and Jews but it is there and Muslims do use these verses to kill others. Those using these verses are not just a few and there are Muslim Imams who also use these verses.



Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176: Narrated by 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.'" Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177: Narrated by Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."


Qur'an 2:191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Qur'an 4:089: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Qur'an 4:091: You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.


Qur'an 17:033: And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.
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Old 12-25-2010, 08:27 AM
 
40,058 posts, read 26,739,576 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
chapters 4 , 5 and 9 means we are talking about 85 pages from quran
it will be easier if you read it yourself and give me specific questions
( and you can get help from anti_islamic sites to quote these specific verses )

but let me for now give you the general brief answers
nothing , and i mean nothing in quran call for extermination of people of any relegion , not even the pagans .

Elwill you say nothing in the Quran says to kill non believers and Jews but it is there and Muslims do use these verses to kill others. Those using these verses are not just a few and there are Muslim Imams who also use these verses.



Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176: Narrated by 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.'" Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177: Narrated by Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."


Qur'an 2:191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Qur'an 4:089: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Qur'an 4:091: You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.


Qur'an 17:033: And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.
There can be no honest conversation with those who seek to deceive in the name of Allah and seek the ultimate submission of ALL to Sharia, Jazzy. Taqiyyah justifies all the lies in the name of defense against the infidels and enemies of Allah. It is COMMANDED by Allah.
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Old 12-25-2010, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
10,513 posts, read 10,331,299 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
chapters 4 , 5 and 9 means we are talking about 85 pages from quran
it will be easier if you read it yourself and give me specific questions
( and you can get help from anti_islamic sites to quote these specific verses )

but let me for now give you the general brief answers
nothing , and i mean nothing in quran call for extermination of people of any relegion , not even the pagans .

may be they refer to this verse
9-29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

actually , this verse is talking about those who refuse to pay theire taxes which be called jeziah (for nonmuslims) and zakaht ( for muslims ) .
it's another issue (you are wellcome if you want to discuss it ) , so it dosn't simply call for the extermination of Jews and Christians


as for christian jesus , quran deny the trinity and deny divinity of jesus but it gives jesus and his mother and the apostles very high respect
elwill, I have doing a little bit of reading of your sacred book and there are a few verses that I would like for you to explain to me their meaning. These verses are from Chapter 9.

A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances: Chp.9.1

Go ye,then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. Chp.9.2

My question to you concerning these two verses, is who do you consider Pagans and in whose land are these verses talking about?

Now I have questions about these other verses from Chapter 9.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguere them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. Chp.9.5

If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. Chp.9.6

What would happen if I refuse to believe in your Allah? Would you be obligated by your sacred book to attempt to take my life?
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Old 12-25-2010, 08:35 PM
 
122 posts, read 126,816 times
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[quote=Jazzymom;17130457]
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
chapters 4 , 5 and 9 means we are talking about 85 pages from quran
it will be easier if you read it yourself and give me specific questions
( and you can get help from anti_islamic sites to quote these specific verses )

but let me for now give you the general brief answers
nothing , and i mean nothing in quran call for extermination of people of any relegion , not even the pagans .


Elwill you say nothing in the Quran says to kill non believers and Jews but it is there and Muslims do use these verses to kill others. Those using these verses are not just a few and there are Muslim Imams who also use these verses.



Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176: Narrated by 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.'" Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177: Narrated by Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."


Qur'an 2:191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Qur'an 4:089: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Qur'an 4:091: You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.


Qur'an 17:033: And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.

From this point on, the scope of jihad was broadened from being purely for defense against direct attack to being inclusive of resistance against those who suppress the faith and deny people the freedom to choose their religion for themselves. This came later, because it is legislated for the Muslims only when they are capable of doing so. In times of weakness, Muslims may only fight against direct attack.

As for the spread of Islam, this is supposed to take place peacefully by disseminating the Message with the written and spoken word. There is no place for the use of weapons to compel people to accept Islam. Weapons can only be drawn against those who persecute and oppress others and prevent them from following their own consciences in matters of belief. The Muslims cannot just stand by while people are being denied the right to believe in Islam and their voices are being crushed.
This is the meaning of Allah’s words: [SIZE=2]“And fight them on until there is no more terrorism or oppression and there prevails a way for justice and faith in Allah.” [/SIZE][Surah al-Baqarah: 193]

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said in his letter to the Roman governor Heracles: “I invite you to accept Islam. If you accept Islam, you will find safety. If you accept Islam, Allah will give you a double reward. However, if you turn away, upon you will be the sin of your subjects.” [Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim]

Once people have heard the Message without obstruction or hindrance and the proof has been established upon them, then the duty of the Muslims is done. Those who wish to believe are free to do so and those who prefer to disbelieve are likewise free to do so.

Even when the Muslims are compelled to fight and then subdue the land, their duty thereafter is to establish Allah’s law in the land and uphold justice for all people, Muslim and non-Muslim. It is not their right to coerce their subjects to accept Islam against their will. Non-Muslims under Muslim rule must be allowed to remain on their own faith and must be allowed to practice the rights of their faith, though they will be expected to respect the laws of the land.

Had the purpose of jihad been to force the unbelievers to accept Islam, the Prophet (peace be upon him) would never have commanded the Muslims to refrain from hostilities if the enemy relented. He would not have prohibited the killing of women and children. However, this is exactly what he did.

During a battle, the Prophet (peace be upon him) saw people gathered together. He dispatched a man to find out why they were gathered. The man returned and said: “They are gathered around a slain woman.” So Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: “She should not have been attacked!” Khalid b. al-Walid was leading the forces, so he dispatched a man to him saying: “‘Tell Khalid not to kill women or laborers”. [Sunan Abu Dawud]

You can find everything here.
Yusef Estes kill
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