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Old 12-30-2010, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Pflugerville
2,211 posts, read 4,124,376 times
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I am not defending Islam, or any religion. I am saying that you can't compare the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world to a select few nutbags. The taliban, and the governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia are pretty much the poorest examples you can find of Muslims in the modern world. But it's important not to veiw all Muslims as that. I know that most people say "well not all muslims are like that" but I really do think that with Islam, we as Americans DO THINK that they are all gay hating, women beating, neanderthals.

I respect what the Human Rights Watch does, but I dont think it gives a clear picture of what is actually in the hearts and minds of people. If you want to get technical about it, America is a country that advocates detainment without trial and torture. And a good many American citizens not only support that, they get warm feelings in their nether regions from it.

But that is directly opposite of what the American Consitituion calls for and what America is supposed to stand for. And there are many in American who are vehemently opposed to torture. I don't want people in foreign countries lumping me in with Dick Cheney just because we both happen to be American.

The OP was specifically asking about where in the Koran does it say women should wear Burqas. I was just stating that it doesn't, but it's important to remember that the muslims who think women are inferior and are property, are not actually following the Koran.

I was also pointing out that many Muslim countries do have Women as heads of state, and have for quite a long time, a much better track record than you will find in America. The Koran is pretty specific as well saying that women have rights to divorce, to be protected financially, and to be equal in the afterlife. You won't find something like that in the bible. Christianity specfically says that women were made for the enjoyment of men. The Koran states that men and women were made for the enjoyment of each other. I am not saying women were always treated equally, but even in mideval times, Muslim women had a plethora of rights not enjoyed by their Christian counterparts.

Female political leaders in Islam and in Muslim-majority countries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Timeline of first women's suffrage in majority-Muslim countries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_i...ge_and_divorce


In reality, those muslim women who are property and forced to wear Burqa's are not the NORM. We could go on for hours at all the injustices in the Muslim world, for there are many. But we could say the same about any religion, government, or country. I don't excuse the behavior, I am just saying it is not indicative of the religion. As with most religions though, people just use it as an excuse to do whatever they were already inclined to do.

If you are they type of person that feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, administers to the sick, then you can do all that under the guise of religion.
If you are they type of person who beats your wife, stones gay people, or blows up buildings, then you can do all that under the guise of religion.

It's not really the religion, it's the people. People filled with hate will always find a "righteous" excuse for violence. You need to focus on the PEOPLE who commit violence, and not the EXCUSE (religion) that they use to explain their violence.

Last edited by JayBrown80; 12-30-2010 at 02:42 PM..
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:10 PM
 
271 posts, read 304,028 times
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Lightbulb The Truth:

Muslims haters do their best to make muslims and islam appear as evil.

They waste their time and money in vain !

Around 30,000 women in Switzerland have converted to Islam

Surat At-Tawbah [9:32-33] - The Qur'an

"They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.
It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.
"
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Pflugerville
2,211 posts, read 4,124,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth light View Post
Muslims haters do their best to make muslims and islam appear as evil.

They waste their time and money in vain !

Around 30,000 women in Switzerland have converted to Islam

Surat At-Tawbah [9:32-33] - The Qur'an

"They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.
It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it."
Do Muslim haters make muslims and islam appear evil?

Or do muslim supporters like yourself do that job for them?

When you say that Islam is the religion of truth to manifest over all other religion, I would say you are making their job rather easy.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:33 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,424,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth light View Post
Muslims haters do their best to make muslims and islam appear as evil.

They waste their time and money in vain !

Around 30,000 women in Switzerland have converted to Islam

Surat At-Tawbah [9:32-33] - The Qur'an

"They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.
It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.
"

People don't hate islam people hate the violence that comes from Muslims in the name of Islam and G-d.

People hate that they see Muslims not reacting against the violence but in some ways supporting it.

Certainly I have seen muslims give reasons for the violence as a way to somehow give it sanction.

I don't care how many people convert to Islam although I do wonder how many actually remain Muslim.

I spent a couple of years in Islam, went to Friday prayers, was active in the mosque and had Muslim friends. But when it came to becoming Muslim I did not and it was because even in this moderate mosque I picked up a sense of hatred of Jews, the west and the whole feeling of how Muslims are victimized.

It was actually a bit scary when a friend of mine said she could never die for Islam but she knew her children could. That sent shivers down my back and I never looked back.

There is a very violent side of Islam and it does have support in Muslim circles.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Pflugerville
2,211 posts, read 4,124,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
People don't hate islam people hate the violence that comes from Muslims in the name of Islam and G-d.

People hate that they see Muslims not reacting against the violence but in some ways supporting it.

Certainly I have seen muslims give reasons for the violence as a way to somehow give it sanction.

I don't care how many people convert to Islam although I do wonder how many actually remain Muslim.

I spent a couple of years in Islam, went to Friday prayers, was active in the mosque and had Muslim friends. But when it came to becoming Muslim I did not and it was because even in this moderate mosque I picked up a sense of hatred of Jews, the west and the whole feeling of how Muslims are victimized.

It was actually a bit scary when a friend of mine said she could never die for Islam but she knew her children could. That sent shivers down my back and I never looked back.

There is a very violent side of Islam and it does have support in Muslim circles.
Would you say that is true of most religions though?

I mean, Christianity is king in America, yet everyday conservatives say Christians are the most persecuted people in America. I know many Catholic family member that love me and don't care if I am gay, but they remain strangely silent when the Catholic church says gays are aberrant.

I know that the Westboro Baptist Church protested gay funerals for 10 years, and no one batted an eyelash. I wonder where the Christian outrage was then? The whole reason the WBC started protesting soldier funerals is that no one cares if you spit at some grieving mother that has a dead gay son.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:42 PM
 
271 posts, read 304,028 times
Reputation: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBrown80 View Post
Do Muslim haters make muslims and islam appear evil?

Or do muslim supporters like yourself do that job for them?

When you say that Islam is the religion of truth to manifest over all other religion, I would say you are making their job rather easy.
God Stated that :

"has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion"

so, the Truth will prevails, God would open hearts of the people he chosen to understand islam and guide them to realize it is the religion of truth.

It's a promise from God to guide people to accept HIS truth.

An invitation for everyone to seek the truth wherever it's found !

He has ordained for you of religion what He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein. Difficult for those who associate others with Allah is that to which you invite them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns back [to Him].(Quran 42:13 meaning)

Thanks for your feelings
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Pflugerville
2,211 posts, read 4,124,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth light View Post
God Stated that :
No. The Koran stated that. Many people do not believe the Koran to be the word of god. You can't just state that as fact, you have to have some empirical data to back it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth light View Post
so, the Truth will prevails, God would open hearts of the people he chosen to understand islam and guide them to realize it is the religion of truth.
And please, do tell. What does the Koran have to say about what will happen to the people that God HASN'T chosen?

Is it something like?

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216

This is the point I am trying to make to you. Simply quoting the Koran and offering no data or real world applications for what you are saying only drives people to be distrustful of Muslims.

I don't have a horse in this race, but since you are a Muslim, aren't you supposed to NOT make Muslims seem crazy?
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:02 PM
 
271 posts, read 304,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBrown80 View Post
No. The Koran stated that. Many people do not believe the Koran to be the word of god. You can't just state that as fact, you have to have some empirical data to back it up.
It's a fact.
Any fair seeker would know it simply !


Quote:
And please, do tell. What does the Koran have to say about what will happen to the people that God HASN'T chosen?

Is it something like?

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216

This is the point I am trying to make to you. Simply quoting the Koran and offering no data or real world applications for what you are saying only drives people to be distrustful of Muslims.
It's you who quote from anti-islamic sites that take Ayats out of context, you can't prove the reverse


Quote:
I don't have a horse in this race, but since you are a Muslim, aren't you supposed to NOT make Muslims seem crazy?
You can simply be more respectable, Devil's Advocate
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Pflugerville
2,211 posts, read 4,124,376 times
Reputation: 2228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth light View Post
It's a fact.
Any fair seeker would know it simply !
The only self evident truths in America are the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. No one, including you, can put forth an idea for society and simply claim "self evidence" as the reason for it's adoption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth light View Post
It's you who quote from anti-islamic sites that take Ayats out of context, you can't prove the reverse
I am absolutely not quoting from anti-islamic sites, I am quoting from the Koran. If i am incorrect, please feel free to correct me. If anything, I am the only one on this thread urging tolerance and understanding of Islam. I have consistently said that not all Muslims should be painted with the same brush. If I am unfairly misquoting the Koran, feel free to correct me. Don't blindly quote the Koran to support your own view points, and not expect others to quote it back. If you believe the Koran to be the absolute truth of Allah, then you have to accept that both Allah and Mohhammed said some pretty stupid things, and they owe us an explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth light View Post
You can simply be more respectable, Devil's Advocate
Do you mean "respectful"? Do you think I am not being respectful of you? And your response to that is to call me the Devil? I have been called worse honey. Usually in the throws of passion. You are going to have to try a little harder.
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Old 12-30-2010, 07:01 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,424,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBrown80 View Post
Would you say that is true of most religions though?

I mean, Christianity is king in America, yet everyday conservatives say Christians are the most persecuted people in America. I know many Catholic family member that love me and don't care if I am gay, but they remain strangely silent when the Catholic church says gays are aberrant.

I know that the Westboro Baptist Church protested gay funerals for 10 years, and no one batted an eyelash. I wonder where the Christian outrage was then? The whole reason the WBC started protesting soldier funerals is that no one cares if you spit at some grieving mother that has a dead gay son.

Christians are not persecuted in the USA, they may be persecuted in other countries and I do think they are definitely persecuted in those countries that they are in and doing missionary activities.

I can't speak to all Catholics but I do know those who left the church because of its stance on gays.

I have very mixed feelings on WBC. As a Jew I don't think anyone has the right to spew hate. I don't think anyone has the right to incite and sometimes I am embarrassed that my country gives them the right to protest.

Family ought to be guaranteed the right to bury their loved ones no matter their sexual orientation. No one ought to be allowed to disrupt that.

But I do know that every time WBC protests there are others who come to counter protest and to block them from the funeral site.

So there are those who do care!
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