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Old 01-12-2011, 02:31 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,045,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post
Thankyou for reply. I want you to know that I have never read the Quran and my reason for these questions is a dismay with all the war and continued upset in the middle east for 1000's of years.

Now that all people are moving about the world, we find ourselves with a mixture of culture and I don't think anybody is anxious about ways that un-questionably give birth to battle.


In order to address these important readings that you have selected , I am going to introduce a sequence of events involving children .

a) A group of 30 children are stranded on an Island and are divided into
5 groups.

b) Each group containing 6 of the children have found a copy of the Quran and embrace the readings.

c) The Territory's which divide the groups of children each contain different necessities to life, one territory would have clean water, one would have plenty of sunshine for harvest, another foliage in order to construct shelter and so on, in each of the 5 territories.

Lets have a look at their guidance which they embrace in the Quran.

1) You are only "fore bidden" not encouraged to show kindness to the other groups who have not in your "opinion" fought you in matters of interpretation of the Quran. God loves just dealers, this is your rule.

2) You are ordered to fight what you believe to be wrongdoers , and fight them until you "feel" that they are not, interfering with your belief. In this manner you will be fighting for God.

3) If your water or food is being stolen, and all measure for reparation to yourselves has been denied, it is time to attack. The matter is non-negotiable in the children's view and violence in the name of God is necessary.
Those who are indifferent, show weakness and are to be considered the enemy. Thus.. God has "opened the door" to war against them through bloodshed in the name of God.


Above we clearly see that the application of the Quran is basically a guarantee to chaos. The readings you have provided are designed for discretionary prompt to war. in the name of God.

This is a negative attempt at management of the human community... in the expectation to bloodshed.

I'm sure there is plenty of good wisdom in the Quran , however as I explained I have not read it. If you provide more it would help me understand more than I do about the belief

Most important.....Can you explain how it would be possible that the children in above example would not in time... annihilate themselves ?
you can twist the iterpretation of quran to show it as bad as you want
but the intent of these verses are clear for me and i think it's clear for whoever unbiased in his study
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:53 PM
 
912 posts, read 724,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
you can twist the iterpretation of quran to show it as bad as you want
but the intent of these verses are clear for me and i think it's clear for whoever unbiased in his study
Can you show me how I have twisted the readings ? I have simply applied the readings that you gave me to a new beginning, for a society.

Please show the mistake in interpretation because I don't see any and am not comfortable being un-fair.

Thankyou ahead
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:00 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,045,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post

Lets have a look at their guidance which they embrace in the Quran.

1) You are only "not forbidden" not encouraged to show kindness to the other groups who have not in your "opinion" fought you in matters of interpretation of the Quran. God loves just dealers, this is your rule.
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"

firstly this verse encourage us to show kindness and dealing justly with them , God described those who do that as just dealers and declared that he loves them ( which means to me encouragment for muslims to be just dealers concerning those whom dosn't fight them from nonmuslims )

secondly " who have not fought you about religion" dosn't means those who fought you in matters of interpretation of the quran
it clearly refer to those who fought muslims for thier relegion

Quote:
2) You are ordered to fight what you believe to be wrongdoers , and fight them until you "feel" that they are not, interfering with your belief. In this manner you will be fighting for God.
And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2:193)
no , the verse is talking about univeral defination for this term
this verse is invitation for freedom of relegion , wrongdoers refer to the persecutors who insist to be persecutor

Quote:
3) If your water or food is being stolen, and all measure for reparation to yourselves has been denied, it is time to attack. The matter is non-negotiable in the children's view and violence in the name of God is necessary.
Those who are indifferent, show weakness and are to be considered the enemy. Thus.. God has "opened the door" to war against them through bloodshed in the name of God.
which verse which fit this situation ?

Quote:
Above we clearly see that the application of the Quran is basically a guarantee to chaos. The readings you have provided are designed for discretionary prompt to war. in the name of God.
you gave us great example for what terrorist do
they firstly decide what they want to do
then search on the quran about the verses which they can take it out of context and twist it's interpretation to mislead the ignorants to support them in their purpose
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:04 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,045,951 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post
Can you show me how I have twisted the readings ? I have simply applied the readings that you gave me to a new beginning, for a society.

Please show the mistake in interpretation because I don't see any and am not comfortable being un-fair.

Thankyou ahead
i didn't mean to be offensive , please accept my apology
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,136,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
It is very common now a days to find hundreds of thousands of Muslims, some of them as young as 12 years old, who are memorizing the whole of Qur'an by heart. Special schools now exist that train their students on how to memorize the Qur'an and properly recite the verses. Local and international competitions are also held in many Muslim countries between those "Hafizoon"
That's very interesting, Elwill. Thanks for the answer.

How about people sitting at lunch reading the Quran? Do you ever see that?
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:24 PM
 
912 posts, read 724,549 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"

firstly this verse encourage us to show kindness and dealing justly with them , God described those who do that as just dealers and declared that he loves them ( which means to me encouragment for muslims to be just dealers concerning those whom dosn't fight them from nonmuslims )

secondly " who have not fought you about religion" dosn't means those who fought you in matters of interpretation of the quran
it clearly refer to those who fought muslims for thier relegion


And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2:193)
no , the verse is talking about univeral defination for this term
this verse is invitation for freedom of relegion , wrongdoers refer to the persecutors who insist to be persecutor


which verse which fit this situation ?


you gave us great example for what terrorist do
they firstly decide what they want to do
then search on the quran about the verses which they can take it out of context and twist it's interpretation to mislead the ignorants to support them in their purpose
Thankyou...I will say again I have never read the quran, so I did not "search"...you gave me these quotes in the last post so I could understand the belief and I commented.

I'm Glad to see that Islam allows other religions to express their faith. Before I came here to see how this is going, I thought I would check to see who the Islam World Leader is.
As I see, there is no leader, but many leaders. So how can a corrupt Islam individual be reported and removed from authourity...?

This may be a problem , especially when good Muslim people are shocked with anti-Islamic ways that give a bad name to the ones who simply want to be good people.......I also found this which contradicts everything you have told me...please look at this, I just noticed it looking for your leader
Islamic Leader to Pope Benedict on Blasphemy: Mind Your Own Business

Also the last comment that you asked which verse in the quran I was referring to was the one that was about...those that don't fight but are on the other side and the "door is wide open...and so on.

Obviously with the above article, we find that if you live in Pakistan the Leader has passed a law...the law says , if you say something against the Islam....you are executed.
Also he told Pope Benedict to mind his own business when the Pope asked him about it.

As well we learn that Egypt, Saudi Arabia, China the Islam rule is you are forbidden to practice another faith....and a Christian church was bombed for it on New Years ....people died.

I did not look for this ...I was simply looking for a leader to find out why there is so much inconsistency with your faith.

What I'm beginning to understand, and I did not know this....Islam is actually an Army that has a religion. Islam combines violent measure out of spiritual thought....
Do you think I'm missing something ? And thanks for your time..

I am not looking to upset people, I have always been curious about the real thoughts of a Muslim person . I also would much rather appreciate people...it is much better.
So...please don't feel you have to represent your faith to me, but I am very confused with....a religion that does not have a Defined leader. This may be the problem Theres no one in control to deal with the things that seem to be contradicting what your saying.....what do you think..?

Last edited by Blue Hue; 01-12-2011 at 09:36 PM..
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:59 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,045,951 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post
I'm Glad to see that Islam allows other religions to express their faith. Before I came here to see how this is going, I thought I would check to see who the Islam World Leader is.
As I see, there is no leader, but many leaders. So how can a corrupt Islam individual be reported and removed from authourity...?
their is no individual leader for entire muslims in the world , our leader is quran and sunnah ( saying of our prophet)


Quote:
This may be a problem , especially when good Muslim people are shocked with anti-Islamic ways that give a bad name to the ones who simply want to be good people.......I also found this which contradicts everything you have told me...please look at this, I just noticed it looking for your leader
Islamic Leader to Pope Benedict on Blasphemy: Mind Your Own Business
no it dosn't contradict what i said
freedom of relegion means the freedom to practice your relegion not means the freedom to insult other relegions


Quote:
Also the last comment that you asked which verse in the quran I was referring to was the one that was about...those that don't fight but are on the other side and the "door is wide open...and so on.
do you mean this verse ?
"How can there be a league, before God and His Apostle, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God doth love the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 9:7)"

what is your insight for this verse again ? what is the problem you see from it ?


Quote:
As well we learn that Egypt, Saudi Arabia, China the Islam rule is you are forbidden to practice another faith....and a Christian church was bombed for it on New Years ....people died.
egyptions copts practised their relegion freely , and all muslims and all scholares of islam in egypt condemned the terrorism which happened in the christian church

Quote:
I did not look for this ...I was simply looking for a leader to find out why there is so much inconsistency with your faith.
i don't think that inconsistency are so much , don't forget that you didn't read about islam in the first place nor read quran
inconsistency exist within minorty who havn't enough knowledge about islam to make right decesions

Quote:
What I'm beginning to understand, and I did not know this....Islam is actually an Army that has a religion. Islam combines violent measure out of spiritual thought....
Do you think I'm missing something ? And thanks for your time..
yes you missing something
islam is an army just when the wars imposed upon it's followers

Quote:
I am not looking to upset people, I have always been curious about the real thoughts of a Muslim person . I also would much rather appreciate people...it is much better.
So...please don't feel you have to represent your faith to me, but I am very confused with....a religion that does not have a Defined leader. This may be the problem Theres no one in control to deal with the things that seem to be contradicting what your saying.....what do you think..?
you can depend on the mainstream muslims and scholars then , not the extremists and terrorists
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:11 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,045,951 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
That's very interesting, Elwill. Thanks for the answer.

How about people sitting at lunch reading the Quran? Do you ever see that?
sometimes we listenning to quran during lunch , not reading it
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Old 01-13-2011, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,136,446 times
Reputation: 1399
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
sometimes we listenning to quran during lunch , not reading it
I can see why you like listening to the Quran because I have heard part of it being recited and it sounds very nice.
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Old 01-13-2011, 10:59 AM
 
912 posts, read 724,549 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
their is no individual leader for entire muslims in the world , our leader is quran and sunnah ( saying of our prophet)



no it dosn't contradict what i said
freedom of relegion means the freedom to practice your relegion not means the freedom to insult other relegions



do you mean this verse ?
"How can there be a league, before God and His Apostle, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God doth love the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 9:7)"

what is your insight for this verse again ? what is the problem you see from it ?



egyptions copts practised their relegion freely , and all muslims and all scholares of islam in egypt condemned the terrorism which happened in the christian church


i don't think that inconsistency are so much , don't forget that you didn't read about islam in the first place nor read quran
inconsistency exist within minorty who havn't enough knowledge about islam to make right decesions


yes you missing something
islam is an army just when the wars imposed upon it's followers


you can depend on the mainstream muslims and scholars then , not the extremists and terrorists

I am beginning to understand how things are. The quote above seems to be positive, but I must say that I don't entirely understand it. I did not intend to be commenting on that specific quote.

Now that you have explained a few things , I think it would be interesting to observe a couple of things and thank you kindly. Most important it is only my opinion and it is possible with your generous time

1) The voice of the final prophet Mohamed is not represented to the Islam people. There must be a World Islamic Leader to voice the Quran. The Islamic people are being persecuted by the ways of the Islamic leaders who are not following the true message in the Quran. When shocking events happen there must be a clear unquestionable determination that specifically denounces, each shocking event.

2) If there is no single leader, the quran cannot be honored. Everyone will interpet the Quran differently and as we see....people get killed unjustly.

3) Because money, politics and the economy of the countries with many Islamic people are different....the Quran will be read and applied in many ways. We see very clear evidence of this.

I'm sure there are many hard working good Islamic people. It would be illogical to assume otherwise.

It is not fair to the people that they must endure the sufferings of corrupt Islamic leaders. Sufferings causing shock and horrific disdain in contemplation,that are not pointed out in coruption by a leader and proclaimed un-acceptable. If other nations voice their opinion , the people do not respect it because of the spiritual belief of Quran is not a reason for
the rejection.
Of course a leader must be agreed upon by the Islamic people. If a leader was chosen...this would be an Honor to the Quran.
It would be a beginning even if the results were not perfect at once.

I think the final prophet Muhamed would have something to say . I cannot
see hope without a leader. There is too many opportunities for arranging the message in hostile ways. We know this, you and I can see this.

The message of spiritual guidance in the Quran , which also offers a defense command in justification of attack, must have a single leader.

There will be no order, without the organization of a leader.

This is my opinion and I am only one person , perhaps many Islam people believe this as well..I don't know.

Wouldn't there be a greater peace in your mind if a World Leader publicly
rejected false representation ? How can Islamic people be ...one in unity representing the Quran?

Well....thanks again and have a nice day

Last edited by Blue Hue; 01-13-2011 at 11:19 AM..
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