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Old 03-16-2011, 11:08 AM
 
4,172 posts, read 5,991,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weaam View Post
Well,Today I’m going to discuss about Honor Killing.

There are hundred of websites,which blames Honor Killling is Islamic…
Many of the countries most notorious for honour killing are Arab or Muslim countries; Pakistan, Turkey, Iraq, Jordan and Palestine. This feeds a general impression that honour killing is somehow related to Islam, which feeds into a general xenophobia against Muslims; and the phenomenon is used by racists and xenophobes as yet another stick with which to beat Muslims, attempting to characterize these murders as a ‘pious act’, approved by Islam.


Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification.

Allah, Most High, says,
“Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93)
The so-called “honor killing” is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.
Muslims kill there females for there honor and to confirm the facts they show us few crimes done by Muslims.
and I’m not afraid to say they are mostly Christians and Hindus(not all but few).

but Let;s Chk the other facts….


In India, for example, many such murders are committed by Hindus and Sikhs. For some Hindus, an honour killing may be motivated by a woman marrying across caste boundaries. In 2003, a young couple who fell in love at University and contracted a secret marriage. Her family disapproved of the match due to his low status in the caste system. They were both forced to drink poison with scores of witnesses to their agonising deaths.

Most cases in India occur in Punjab and Haryana (in which two provinces one out of every ten murders is an honour killing) and parts of western Uttar Pradesh. Many of these murders are ordered by an informal judicial system of caste panchayat, which is a self-proclaimed body consisting of village elders, from which women are excluded. Mangal Singh, a Sikh interviewed in Amritsar, claimed that the 17 women and children killed within his family were willing ‘martyrs’ in the name of family pride.



Honour killing also happens in Christian communities in the Mediterranean and other regions. The culture of Ancient Rome allowed the father to kill his children if he deemed necessary. Honour killing was only abolished as a specific category in Italy in 1981, and murders in the name of honour still occur in the country. In 2006, Bruna Morito was shot six times in the face by her brother for bearing a child outside marriage. In Brazil, men could be acquitted for murdering their wives up until 1991, and there have been 800 recorded such murders in a single year. Even in 1991, a lower court ignored the ruling of the Supreme Court and acquitted Joao Lopes for the double homicide of his wife and her lover. In fact, the opposition of the woman as the vessel of familial honour and the man as its protector was widespread throughout the southern European region, although it is not clear how many murders are committed in the name of honour at the present time.


Even within the Middle East, honour killing is not restricted to Muslims. In Yemen, a Jewish father killed his daughter after a rebuke from the rabbi for her extra-marital pregnancy, and in Palestine, in 2005, Faten Habash was beaten to death with an iron bar, wielded by her Christian father because she wanted to marry her Muslim boyfriend.


Honor Killing is not in ISLAM « ISLAM—World’s Greatest Religion!
Nice try to deflect this against non-Islamic religions and areas. Regardless of if Islam is pro/anti honor killings, most honor killings are done by muslims. Here is a quote from a statistical analysis of honor killings, will more references:

In this study, worldwide, 91 percent of perpetrators were Muslims

Worldwide Trends in Honor Killings :: Middle East Quarterly

Yes, there may be some honor killings in different countries - even in US (probabably by muslims), but, world wide, almost all such killings are done by muslims. You should tell them that Islam does not condone this.

Last edited by calmdude; 03-16-2011 at 11:22 AM..
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,371,891 times
Reputation: 3735
Cool It's True! The World's Greatest Religion!

It's true! The web link is, in fact, likely quite true: Islam is probably...

"The World's Greatest Religion!"

But let's look at what makes a "religion", OK?

1) A comprehensive story that sets up the belief system, with all the necessary details to cover all contingencies and objections. This always requires some inexplicable magic, as well as highly ambiguous future prophecies that any idiot fool could have made, since no rational non-supernatural story can cover all worldly events and set of absolutely unviolatable rules. No exceptions, or else... see #2, next....

2) A very rigid discipline system, up to and including mandatory death penalties {including so-called Honor Killings...} , to maintain adherence to those absolute rules. This also serves to quickly remove those with particularly valid and credible objections ("Off with their heads! That ought to keep them quiet,eh, Allah")

3) A system that readily appeals to a mass of people, who, almost without exception in the Medieval and ancient world, were pathologically illiterate, on the brink of endless starvation and poverty, and in need of a savior and a cause. Against this horde of convenient philosophical slaves, there were of course those in the church who saw a great and golden opportunity...

4) A system of perceived rewards. Since the church could not be, simultaneously fi$cally generous, giving back their hard-won booty of gold, property and money, they offered instead the empty promise of eternal life, of 72 virgins or a wonderful heavenly setting where everything is wonderful, all the time!! Huzzah! Literally, religions always promise anything non-physical or non-monetary to appease and control those mumbling, starving and possibly increasingly unruly masses storming outside the Church/temple window.

5) An appeal to it's members to pester, annoy, or generally get in the face of non-believers.
The more under the controlling thumb of the master religion, the better. And to blaspheme, denigrate and even murder, those who are good at denouncing the sins of the notoriously evil behavior and self-serving arrogance of the church's administration.

In light of these simple requirements, yep; I'd say Islam may well now be at the top of the heap of functioning religions that meet all these criteria in the most effective manner. One of those means being, of course, the Honor Killing. Yup: [for now anyhow...]

The World's Greatest Religion!
*
____________________________

(*Sign up NOW infidel, or else!

PS: did I miss any key elements? This was just off the top of my head...)

Last edited by rifleman; 03-16-2011 at 11:22 AM..
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
616 posts, read 591,241 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Your post about honor killing was very informative.

I did a web search on "honor killing Quran" and found a website that seemed, in my opinion, to be critical of Islam. The only quotes they gave from the Quran that might support honor killing are the ones below.

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”


Quran-24:2 “The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day.”


well, the punishment stated in verse 4:15 was to confine them until another directive was revealed, which was revealed in sura" 4:16 And as for the two of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. And if thy repent and improve, then let them be. Lo! Allah is ever relenting, Merciful".

and then later in sura 24 verse 2.“The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day.”

there is no Discrimination since the Quran in the verse directly after says this overruling applies to both men and women ,and gives punishment for a crime (which is justice) and accepts their repentance

thanks
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:52 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,319,376 times
Reputation: 1786
So flogging for adultery you see as a modern moral law? Why not let the spouses sort it out and divorce if necessary.

Who determines that the crime of adultery actually took place? By this I assume you muslim folk do not have sex in public view. One would assume this act to be done discretely.

Let's see, a man tires of his wife, which is 99% arranged marriage and then to get rid of her, claims adultery, find 3 other witnesses and whallah you have a crime, am I close?

If not, pray do tell how your sex police actually determine who is flagging who and who is legally married or not.

For there to be 4 credible witnesses, one has to assume, if truthful, folk do it like dogs do.

Assuming you live in the USA or other civilized western country, you do know, flogging a woman would be deemed a crime? She could lay charges for assault for which the beater would get at least 5 years and probably not make it out of the prison system. Similarly for a man.

Yeah tying up a woman to a post and flogging her with a whip, probably laced with sharp things sound like a very humane way of dealing with adultery.
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
616 posts, read 591,241 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by calmdude View Post
Nice try to deflect this against non-Islamic religions and areas. Regardless of if Islam is pro/anti honor killings, most honor killings are done by muslims. Here is a quote from a statistical analysis of honor killings, will more references:

In this study, worldwide, 91 percent of perpetrators were Muslims

Worldwide Trends in Honor Killings :: Middle East Quarterly

Yes, there may be some honor killings in different countries - even in US (probabably by muslims), but, world wide, almost all such killings are done by muslims. You should tell them that Islam does not condone this.




so, you said " You should tell them that Islam does not condone this" it is Very funny but rather we must judged all do it, thus done by the muslim that does mean that is of islam but as I explained above

that's it

thanks
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:07 PM
 
4,172 posts, read 5,991,924 times
Reputation: 1199
Quote:
Originally Posted by weaam View Post
so, you said " You should tell them that Islam does not condone this" it is Very funny but rather we must judged all do it, thus done by the muslim that does mean that is of islam but as I explained above

that's it

thanks
Not funny but you will agree it is easier to judge when the 91% who do it come from 1 religion. At least you should agree the behavior of muslims is a product of what Islam teaches them. If muslims are responsible for overwhelming majority of honor kilings, the teachings (or interpretations) are a huge problem. Try not to cover this problem up and proclaim how great the religion is when the results are very questionable.
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
616 posts, read 591,241 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
It's true! The web link is, in fact, likely quite true: Islam is probably...

"The World's Greatest Religion!"

But let's look at what makes a "religion", OK?

1) A comprehensive story that sets up the belief system, with all the necessary details to cover all contingencies and objections. This always requires some inexplicable magic, as well as highly ambiguous future prophecies that any idiot fool could have made, since no rational non-supernatural story can cover all worldly events and set of absolutely unviolatable rules. No exceptions, or else... see #2, next....

2) A very rigid discipline system, up to and including mandatory death penalties {including so-called Honor Killings...} , to maintain adherence to those absolute rules. This also serves to quickly remove those with particularly valid and credible objections ("Off with their heads! That ought to keep them quiet,eh, Allah")

3) A system that readily appeals to a mass of people, who, almost without exception in the Medieval and ancient world, were pathologically illiterate, on the brink of endless starvation and poverty, and in need of a savior and a cause. Against this horde of convenient philosophical slaves, there were of course those in the church who saw a great and golden opportunity...

4) A system of perceived rewards. Since the church could not be, simultaneously fi$cally generous, giving back their hard-won booty of gold, property and money, they offered instead the empty promise of eternal life, of 72 virgins or a wonderful heavenly setting where everything is wonderful, all the time!! Huzzah! Literally, religions always promise anything non-physical or non-monetary to appease and control those mumbling, starving and possibly increasingly unruly masses storming outside the Church/temple window.

5) An appeal to it's members to pester, annoy, or generally get in the face of non-believers.
The more under the controlling thumb of the master religion, the better. And to blaspheme, denigrate and even murder, those who are good at denouncing the sins of the notoriously evil behavior and self-serving arrogance of the church's administration.

In light of these simple requirements, yep; I'd say Islam may well now be at the top of the heap of functioning religions that meet all these criteria in the most effective manner. One of those means being, of course, the Honor Killing. Yup: [for now anyhow...]

The World's Greatest Religion!
*
____________________________

(*Sign up NOW infidel, or else!

PS: did I miss any key elements? This was just off the top of my head...)

look post me with clear method, I think your style NOT understanded to me well, yes I know what did you post but your mean did not, you posted me as NATIVE .


I am do not care to convincing you about islam greatest or NOT In both cases is the religion of God and his laws ....

Honor Killingis mere evil act as any crime in this a world

thanks
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,371,891 times
Reputation: 3735
Default My own demise....

One: What say you?

Two: If I get your meaning, you deny honor killings, and yet many here have proven to you they are common place and accepted within your religion, which hardly makes it, as your link claims, The World's Greatest Religion. But then, by my post, I point out, practically it may well be, but for the wrong reasons.


Sigh.... you probably don't understand me, so I give up. Not that I could ever hope to compete with Allah for the hearts and minds of the faithful....

Q: to others here: how long would I last, physically, if I stood up on my soap box in some Islamic town and started spouting, clearly and in their language, my ideas and beliefs about religion and Islam? What do you say, friends? How long would you give me?
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Old 03-16-2011, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
616 posts, read 591,241 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
So flogging for adultery you see as a modern moral law?


was the law of God thus be deterrent to adultery,they able to obtain a sexual relationship be
a marriage why not?

having sex outside of marriage brings AIDS and significant problems in all societies.



How do you say you are a civilized society then!!!!!





Why not let the spouses sort it out and divorce if necessary.

they can divorce if them life not happy with them

Who determines that the crime of adultery actually took place? By this I assume you muslim folk do not have sex in public view. One would assume this act to be done discretely.


YES , For that we find that flogging does not apply only very rare why ? for it may done discretely ....


Here are manifested Islam superiority ,which gives an opportunity to repent
And turn a new page of his\her life with peace

thus saves societies of adultery in public





Let's see, a man tires of his wife, which is 99% arranged marriage and then to get rid of her, claims adultery, find 3 other witnesses and whallah you have a crime, am I close?


Almost.....

if any man tires of his wife or Contrary WHY CLAIM ADULTRY? he\she can remarrige other man\woman


any Commits adultery does not find 4 other witnesses for they never committing in public view




If not, pray do tell how your sex police actually determine who is flagging who and who is legally married or not.



For there to be 4 credible witnesses, one has to assume, if truthful, folk do it like dogs do.


I think they are not the natural person who commits adultery in front of people as you said "as dogs do"

for that was flogging punishment




Assuming you live in the USA or other civilized western country, you do know, flogging a woman would be deemed a crime? She could lay charges for assault for which the beater would get at least 5 years and probably not make it out of the prison system. Similarly for a man.

In all Muslim societies, women does NOT flogging for it is discretely ...


Far from the eyes of the people flogging


flog does not occur only after complex conditions



Yeah tying up a woman to a post and flogging her with a whip, probably laced with sharp things sound like a very humane way of dealing with adultery.


thanks
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Old 03-16-2011, 01:34 PM
 
Location: PA
563 posts, read 800,620 times
Reputation: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
One: What say you?

Two: If I get your meaning, you deny honor killings, and yet many here have proven to you they are common place and accepted within your religion, which hardly makes it, as your link claims, The World's Greatest Religion. But then, by my post, I point out, practically it may well be, but for the wrong reasons.


Sigh.... you probably don't understand me, so I give up. Not that I could ever hope to compete with Allah for the hearts and minds of the faithful....

Q: to others here: how long would I last, physically, if I stood up on my soap box in some Islamic town and started spouting, clearly and in their language, my ideas and beliefs about religion and Islam? What do you say, friends? How long would you give me?
Not very long at all. Point taken.
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