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Old 04-22-2011, 01:20 PM
 
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Jesus did exist and this is 100% true fact.

Jesus was not nailed to a cross and this is 100% true fact.
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Old 04-22-2011, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,048 posts, read 4,211,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmessage View Post
Jesus was not nailed to a cross and this is 100% true fact.
Interesting theory. You've got 2.2 Billion Christians and the fairly limited historical record saying he WAS nailed to a cross. You have 1.5 Billion Muslims saying he wasn't. You can't have it both ways, so how do you determine who is right?

The Romans recorded the execution of Jesus of Nazareth. The Christians who were present all affirm the same thing: He was crucified, died, buried and rose from the dead. Hundreds of early Christians attest to this. And the Romans were notoriously thorough in verifying things -- hence the spear thrust into his side. They wanted to be certain he was dead.

Then about 600 years later, one lone man named Mohammed claims that Allah told him that Jesus wasn't crucified, that it was all a big illusion and that neither God nor Jesus bothered to tell any of Jesus apostles and other followers.

Which version sounds more credible to you? Why should anyone believe the Muslim version of things more than the Christian version?
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Old 04-22-2011, 09:59 PM
 
439 posts, read 482,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Interesting theory. You've got 2.2 Billion Christians and the fairly limited historical record saying he WAS nailed to a cross. You have 1.5 Billion Muslims saying he wasn't. You can't have it both ways, so how do you determine who is right?

The Romans recorded the execution of Jesus of Nazareth. The Christians who were present all affirm the same thing: He was crucified, died, buried and rose from the dead. Hundreds of early Christians attest to this. And the Romans were notoriously thorough in verifying things -- hence the spear thrust into his side. They wanted to be certain he was dead.

Then about 600 years later, one lone man named Mohammed claims that Allah told him that Jesus wasn't crucified, that it was all a big illusion and that neither God nor Jesus bothered to tell any of Jesus apostles and other followers.

Which version sounds more credible to you? Why should anyone believe the Muslim version of things more than the Christian version?
And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them . The Noble Quran.


there are five possibilities for the meaning of "but it appeared so unto them"

even if none of them is the correct analysis that would not change any thing from the correct facts which are

1- they slew him not
2- nor crucified him,
3- but it appeared so unto them
4- But Allah took him up unto Himself.

another fact was that they did want and they did plan to kill him but
and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.




YouTube - David Copperfield - Vanishing the Statue of Liberty
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:24 PM
 
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My God is an awesome God! He is the ONLY God & He is a living God! And I'm thankful he died for my sins.
THAT is the truth )
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,048 posts, read 4,211,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmessage View Post
And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them . The Noble Quran.


there are five possibilities for the meaning of "but it appeared so unto them"

even if none of them is the correct analysis that would not change any thing from the correct facts which are

1- they slew him not
2- nor crucified him,
3- but it appeared so unto them
4- But Allah took him up unto Himself.

another fact was that they did want and they did plan to kill him but [indent][indent]and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
Lovely that you can quote from the Quran but it doesn't actually change anything. It works like this: I'm Christian and I accept the Bible. You're Muslim and you accept the Quran. You're book says something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than mine, so quoting from your book is completely and totally pointless. I'm not going to accept your holy book as more authoritative than my own. If and when they contradict each other, I'm sticking with the Bible.

Now if you were a thinking person -- you know the sort that uses facts, history, research, etc and were able to make your case for all of this, that'd be one thing. But all you seem to be able to do is quote the Quran and then you expect everyone to just accept it as fact "because the Quran says so." It doesn't make a compelling case that you're right, it just makes you look like a mindless follower that can do nothing but parrot "what the holy book says." Let's be frank, it ain't helping your side of things to look credible. Quite the opposite actually.

You're bypassing a very big problem here. If you were just a non-believer or atheist denouncing Jesus as a fraud that'd be one thing. You're not. You're accepting Jesus as a true messenger from God. As it turns out, Jesus had a large group of disciples and a little over a dozen apostles. They dutifully wrote all down their first and second hand accounts of the life of Jesus. For things that happened while they weren't present, there had access to hundreds of Jesus' followers and family that were there. They recount the fact that he did die, was buried and rose from the dead. There were hundreds of first-hand witnesses to all of this. Hundreds felt the prints of the nails and spear wound in his side with their own hands. About 500 believers saw him ascend into heaven after all that. Now if Jesus was a true messenger from God, are you willing to believe that his most trusted followers made all of it up? Are you trying to say that God/Allah deceived all of Jesus' trusted followers with some smoke and mirrors illusion trick, and that it just wasn't important enough to tell anyone about it until 600 years later?? This presumes that God/Allah would willfully deceive his people and let them believe a lie for six centuries. Can you explain why God/Allah would do such a deceitful thing?

Last edited by godofthunder9010; 04-22-2011 at 10:57 PM..
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Old 04-23-2011, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,360,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmessage View Post
Jesus did exist and this is 100% true fact.
"True fact" has verifiable evidence to support it. Please present the verifiable evidence to support your statement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
The Romans recorded the execution of Jesus of Nazareth.
Really???? I, and no doubt the rest of the world would like to see verifiable evidence for that please. The historians of the world who have access to the Roman archives have obviously missed it huh?
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Old 04-23-2011, 01:10 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Really???? I, and no doubt the rest of the world would like to see verifiable evidence for that please. The historians of the world who have access to the Roman archives have obviously missed it huh?
Tacitus, as we will see, was not exactly pro-Christian. In recounting the time when Nero burned Rome, Tacitus says that to deflect blame, Nero targeted Christians and blamed them for the fire. He ordered Christians to be thrown to dogs, crucified, burned and a whole host of other ugly things.

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians (or Chrestians) by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired."

Tacitus didn't dispute the historocity of the crucifixion of Jesus. He says Pontius Pilate condemned Jesus to death and executed him. As a historian and a man with absolutely no vested interest in the future success of Christianity, Tacitus would have been thrilled to report that Jesus (or Christus as he chooses to call him) was an entirely imaginary character who never even existed to begin with. Tacitus clearly despised the Christians, but he does confirm that Jesus/Christus was a real person who the Romans put to death.

There may be any number of other sources. That's one I know right off the top of my head.
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Old 04-23-2011, 04:02 AM
 
Location: Phoenix Arizona
2,032 posts, read 4,042,179 times
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It doesnt matter if Jesus ever lived or not. Its the ideas about compassion in the Gospels that matter. And even if there is no God ,living with compassion for other people in general as a rule is the point. If you want to call that altruism God or godless atheist humanism it doesn't matter as much as the intent.
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Old 04-23-2011, 05:59 AM
 
20 posts, read 26,980 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball Pean View Post
Imagine if you were Jesus. You get whipped, beaten, spit on, nailed to a cross, stabbed, and left for dead, all because you spoke the truth and loved, and you still defeat death. THen have a whole society of people deny you ever even suffered, died, or defeated death because one dude, without any credentials at all decides to drag your name and your whole legacy through the mud. How would that feel?
i imagined that though i am less than to be at his position peace be upon him
our religion ordered us to believe on him as prophet not as son of Allah
Any way i think that if i nailed to the cross and so on as you said and killed , it seems for me not logical because if he is the son of do not you think that Allah can save him , Allah is capable for every thing
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Old 04-23-2011, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,360,822 times
Reputation: 2613
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Tacitus, as we will see, was not exactly pro-Christian. In recounting the time when Nero burned Rome, Tacitus says that to deflect blame, Nero targeted Christians and blamed them for the fire. He ordered Christians to be thrown to dogs, crucified, burned and a whole host of other ugly things.

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians (or Chrestians) by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired."

Tacitus didn't dispute the historocity of the crucifixion of Jesus. He says Pontius Pilate condemned Jesus to death and executed him. As a historian and a man with absolutely no vested interest in the future success of Christianity, Tacitus would have been thrilled to report that Jesus (or Christus as he chooses to call him) was an entirely imaginary character who never even existed to begin with. Tacitus clearly despised the Christians, but he does confirm that Jesus/Christus was a real person who the Romans put to death.
Oh what a surprise!!! Tacitus.... again!! The passage by Tacitus is highly suspected as being yet another Christian insertion into the work. Some of the problems with this passage are that it uses the title "procurator" for Pilate. At the time of the suspected insertion by Christian forgers, the title that Pilate had held had been changed to "Procurator". However (and this is why modern historians consider it a forgery) at the time that Tacitus is alleged to have written the passage, Pilate's title was "Prefect" and not "Procurator".

Tacitus was a Roman Imperial historian and would have been well aware of what Pilate's title was. He would never have made such a mistake.

Tacitus names the person as "Christ" (Christus), when Roman records would not have used this name. It would have been "Jesus, son of Joseph" or similar.

The passage is paraphrased by Sulpicius Severus in the 5th century without attributing it to Tacitus.

The evidence speaks AGAINST it being based on any Roman records -but merely a few details which Tacitus gathered from Christian stories circulating in his time.It's NOT evidence for Jesus, it's just evidence for 2nd century Christian stories about Jesus.

Quote:
There may be any number of other sources. That's one I know right off the top of my head.
If the others are Josephus, Thallus, Pliny, Suetonius, Ignatius, Phlegon, Valentinus, Polycarp, Lucian, Galen, The Talmud or Mara bar Serapion...bring 'em on. I'll sink those boats for you too.
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