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Old 04-23-2011, 10:13 AM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,456,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmessage View Post
Jesus did exist and this is 100% true fact.
It's not fact or else there would be, you know, facts to back you up. There aren't. All the supposed "evidence" of the guy you call Jesus was written decades after the fact, by guys who didn't even see him for themselves.

Epic fail, sorry.
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Old 04-23-2011, 03:21 PM
 
439 posts, read 482,147 times
Reputation: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Lovely that you can quote from the Quran but it doesn't actually change anything. It works like this: I'm Christian and I accept the Bible. You're Muslim and you accept the Quran. You're book says something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than mine, so quoting from your book is completely and totally pointless. I'm not going to accept your holy book as more authoritative than my own. If and when they contradict each other, I'm sticking with the Bible.

Now if you were a thinking person -- you know the sort that uses facts, history, research, etc and were able to make your case for all of this, that'd be one thing. But all you seem to be able to do is quote the Quran and then you expect everyone to just accept it as fact "because the Quran says so." It doesn't make a compelling case that you're right, it just makes you look like a mindless follower that can do nothing but parrot "what the holy book says." Let's be frank, it ain't helping your side of things to look credible. Quite the opposite actually.

You're bypassing a very big problem here. If you were just a non-believer or atheist denouncing Jesus as a fraud that'd be one thing. You're not. You're accepting Jesus as a true messenger from God. As it turns out, Jesus had a large group of disciples and a little over a dozen apostles. They dutifully wrote all down their first and second hand accounts of the life of Jesus. For things that happened while they weren't present, there had access to hundreds of Jesus' followers and family that were there. They recount the fact that he did die, was buried and rose from the dead. There were hundreds of first-hand witnesses to all of this. Hundreds felt the prints of the nails and spear wound in his side with their own hands. About 500 believers saw him ascend into heaven after all that. Now if Jesus was a true messenger from God, are you willing to believe that his most trusted followers made all of it up? Are you trying to say that God/Allah deceived all of Jesus' trusted followers with some smoke and mirrors illusion trick, and that it just wasn't important enough to tell anyone about it until 600 years later?? This presumes that God/Allah would willfully deceive his people and let them believe a lie for six centuries. Can you explain why God/Allah would do such a deceitful thing?


were there prophets and messengers from Allah before Jesus peace be upon him?

the answer is yes


then it is also possible that Jesus can be a prophet before another messenger and that is Muhammad peace be upon him
who came after him


can Muhammad be a prophet before another messenger that will come after him ?

the answer is no

because there will be no new prophet or messenger after Muhammad

because Allah said that .


the history people of Jesus say that Jesus was crucified


Muhammad said (from Allah) that Jesus was not crucified but
(the passive verb of (similitude)) to them




the history in general is correct but it contains thing that did not happen or happened not exactly as it was recorded


and that also exist in the Islamic history


but when the Islamic history mention any thing about prophet Muhammad


and i mean any thing big or small , even if it is only one word then they verify the source of this information.

for example if MR. a1 said that the prophet said or did something and he got this information from

a2 and a2 from a3 and so on until the chain reach to the prophet.

then they verify all the people in the chain and if only one of them does not have a very good reputation then they do not accept that act as a prophet act .



now i want you to examine the people in the chain who from them the current bible is written

does the chain reach to prophet Jesus without any cut?



YouTube - VANISHING STATUE OF LIBERTY TRICK REVEALED
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Old 04-23-2011, 03:34 PM
 
439 posts, read 482,147 times
Reputation: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
"True fact" has verifiable evidence to support it. Please present the verifiable evidence to support your statement.


Really???? I, and no doubt the rest of the world would like to see verifiable evidence for that please. The historians of the world who have access to the Roman archives have obviously missed it huh?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
It's not fact or else there would be, you know, facts to back you up. There aren't. All the supposed "evidence" of the guy you call Jesus was written decades after the fact, by guys who didn't even see him for themselves.

Epic fail, sorry.

when there is a report contains some infomation and we can not be sure if the information is correct in the report or not .

then another report for the same information is written from a different source and there are similar things in both report then at least we should be sure about these parts of the report.
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Old 04-23-2011, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,036 posts, read 4,199,055 times
Reputation: 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmessage View Post
were there prophets and messengers from Allah before Jesus peace be upon him? The answer is yes.
We're on the same page that there wre prophets before. No argument there. We obviously disagree on what Jesus was, but at least we agree that he was sent by God.

Quote:
Then it is also possible that Jesus can be a prophet before another messenger and that is Muhammad peace be upon him
I absolutely do believe that it's possible for God to send another messenger after Jesus and the apostles, but I see no reason to believe that Mohammed was actually sent by God.

He claims that angel Gabriel spoke to him and taught him the truths that were later recorded in the Quran, but in order for me to accept that he wasn't just making it up, I have to accept the notion that the New Testament, written by Jesus followers that he called to lead, drastically misrepresents the events of the life of Jesus of Nazareth. I have to even accept that they got even some of the simplest details completely wrong.

Just consider, in order for a Christian to accept that Mohammed was a true prophet:
1.) We must give up the notion that Jesus is the Son of God, etc.
2.) We must accept that this prophet of God (Jesus) was so uninspired and such a terrible judge of character that the group of men he hand picked to lead all conspired enmasse to lie quite spectacularly about everything they knew about Jesus
3.) We must accept that they lied about where and how he was born, the details of his life and family, claiming that he was the Son of God, claiming that he died for the sins of all mankind, etc.
4.) Of necessity, they all need to be in on this conspiracy because we see no signs of any of them deviating from it. Meanwhile God stood by and did nothing to stop them.
5.) Jesus was still alive witnessing his followers do all of this and also did nothing.
6.) This group of men that is being accused by you are accepted by Christians as prophets of God, of equal or greater standing than any prophets that came before them. And you're effectively saying that the apostles were not prophets at all, but were a pack of mutually conspiring liars.
7.) Paul was lying when he saw the vision of Jesus.
8.) Stephen was lying when he saw God and Jesus standing together and died rather than confess his lie.
9.) All revelations and visions of Peter go out the window.
10.) The Revelation of John is invalidated.
11.) If these men lied and claimed that Jesus was the Son of God, then everything they ever did or said is suspect.
12.) The entire message and mission of Jesus of Nazareth becomes tainted and it's purposes ruined because these men who Christians consider to be divine messengers from God were actually liars.
13.) To a man, they were all so committed to their deception that they were imprisoned, tortured, and died horrible deaths, all the while refusing to admit that they had deceived everyone by misrepresenting who and what Jesus was.
14.) Since then, millions of Christians have suffered the similar fates, all desperately clinging to a pack of lies.
15.) And through all of this, God did nothing and just let countless believers go to their deaths for nothing but lies.

That is what you're asking Christians to buy into. It's a lot bigger than just accepting that another prophet of God could be sent. You're asking Christians to accept that mean they accept as prophets weren't prophets at all. They were liars and deceivers.

All of that just so Mohammed could show up 600 years later claiming,"They got it all wrong, but I have the true story from God!"

Put yourself in a Christians shoes and tell me if you really believe that it'd be so easy to buy into the idea that Mohammed was a prophet.

This is why "because Mohammed said so" doesn't hold any water with me. I do not accept him as a true prophet and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

The thing about Islam that offends Christians more than anything is this complete hijacking and retelling of the story of Jesus. It is also one of the biggest items that destroys the credibility of the message of Islam. I'm happy to tell you that I respect the Islamic faith. I think there's a lot of good teachings in it. But please realize that your trampling all over things equivalent to "Everyone draw Mohammed day" and "Everyone burn the Quran day." If you want to convert Christians, telling them "Everything you know about Jesus is a lie" is a lousy place to start.
Quote:
Who came after him? Can Muhammad be a prophet before another messenger that will come after him ? The answer is no. Because there will be no new prophet or messenger after Muhammad because Allah said that .
Just a point I'd like to make: I find the notion that any prophet or apostle is "the last messenger God will ever send," dropping off a book of scriptures as the definitive guide to everything from now on, and then just abandoning humankind -- I find this teaching to be completely ridiculous. God says he is the same yesterday, today and forever. Written scripture and living prophets coexisted for centuries. Why would God change programs if he is the same yesterday, today and forever? Why would there ever be an end to him sending prophets and messengers to mankind? I have always found the notion to be utterly preposterous.

The worst part is, because Islam teaches that there can be no more prophets, Muslims are obligated to refuse to listen even if an actual prophet of God was sent to them. It also effectively ties the hands of God/Allah, telling him what he can or can't do. Essentially, God/Allah can do anything ... except send a living prophet to deliver any message of any kind to mankind ... all because Mohammed said so.

That's another reason I can't accept Mohammed as a prophet. He claims that God tied his own hands and abandoned humankind. Why on earth would God do that??
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Old 04-23-2011, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,036 posts, read 4,199,055 times
Reputation: 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
If the others are Josephus, Thallus, Pliny, Suetonius, Ignatius, Phlegon, Valentinus, Polycarp, Lucian, Galen, The Talmud or Mara bar Serapion...bring 'em on. I'll sink those boats for you too.
All reasons why I'm not gonna play. You're intent on belittling what I believe and take great pleasure in it. Why would I want to continue on with a discussion with such a person?

It is incredibly unlikely that Jesus of Nazareth was an entirely made-up person, but you are welcome to believe that if it makes you feel better.
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Old 04-23-2011, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,335,973 times
Reputation: 2611
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
All reasons why I'm not gonna play. You're intent on belittling what I believe and take great pleasure in it. Why would I want to continue on with a discussion with such a person?
Just giving you the facts Sir....just the facts.
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Old 04-23-2011, 08:37 PM
 
591 posts, read 560,763 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by !slam View Post
i imagined that though i am less than to be at his position peace be upon him
our religion ordered us to believe on him as prophet not as son of Allah
Any way i think that if i nailed to the cross and so on as you said and killed , it seems for me not logical because if he is the son of do not you think that Allah can save him , Allah is capable for every thing

Jesus took a stand for the truth and for the idea. He knew what was in store for for him. John the Baptist was beheaded for teaching the same kinds of things. Jesus knew very well what he was in for by speaking the truth and teaching the idea. You are like Muhammad in your judging God. God didn't give up on Jesus. It is because of Jesus' suffering, dying, and resurrection that Jesus conquered. Mankind is provided a source of guidance and compassion for all suffering, death, and rebirth. It is how Christ becomes the king of kings. As Christians, we learn to give our souls as a personal sacrifice to God, just as Jesus did on the cross. Spiritual death and rebirth is a phlosophy that has been taught by gurus for an aeon. Christ not only solidifies a lot of ancient phlosphies by doing and teaching what he did, but he delivers us a source of guidance and compassion to help get us through it. It is life eternal that is being stolen from all who follow Muhammad. By rejecting Christ as who he was and what he did, you will not be ressurected/reincarnated/respawned. You will linger in the in-between.

Last edited by Ball Pean; 04-23-2011 at 09:01 PM..
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Old 04-24-2011, 11:09 PM
 
439 posts, read 482,147 times
Reputation: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
We're on the same page that there wre prophets before. No argument there. We obviously disagree on what Jesus was, but at least we agree that he was sent by God.


I absolutely do believe that it's possible for God to send another messenger after Jesus and the apostles, but I see no reason to believe that Mohammed was actually sent by God.

He claims that angel Gabriel spoke to him and taught him the truths that were later recorded in the Quran, but in order for me to accept that he wasn't just making it up, I have to accept the notion that the New Testament, written by Jesus followers that he called to lead, drastically misrepresents the events of the life of Jesus of Nazareth. I have to even accept that they got even some of the simplest details completely wrong.

Just consider, in order for a Christian to accept that Mohammed was a true prophet:
1.) We must give up the notion that Jesus is the Son of God, etc.
2.) We must accept that this prophet of God (Jesus) was so uninspired and such a terrible judge of character that the group of men he hand picked to lead all conspired enmasse to lie quite spectacularly about everything they knew about Jesus
3.) We must accept that they lied about where and how he was born, the details of his life and family, claiming that he was the Son of God, claiming that he died for the sins of all mankind, etc.
4.) Of necessity, they all need to be in on this conspiracy because we see no signs of any of them deviating from it. Meanwhile God stood by and did nothing to stop them.
5.) Jesus was still alive witnessing his followers do all of this and also did nothing.
6.) This group of men that is being accused by you are accepted by Christians as prophets of God, of equal or greater standing than any prophets that came before them. And you're effectively saying that the apostles were not prophets at all, but were a pack of mutually conspiring liars.
7.) Paul was lying when he saw the vision of Jesus.
8.) Stephen was lying when he saw God and Jesus standing together and died rather than confess his lie.
9.) All revelations and visions of Peter go out the window.
10.) The Revelation of John is invalidated.
11.) If these men lied and claimed that Jesus was the Son of God, then everything they ever did or said is suspect.
12.) The entire message and mission of Jesus of Nazareth becomes tainted and it's purposes ruined because these men who Christians consider to be divine messengers from God were actually liars.
13.) To a man, they were all so committed to their deception that they were imprisoned, tortured, and died horrible deaths, all the while refusing to admit that they had deceived everyone by misrepresenting who and what Jesus was.
14.) Since then, millions of Christians have suffered the similar fates, all desperately clinging to a pack of lies.
15.) And through all of this, God did nothing and just let countless believers go to their deaths for nothing but lies.

That is what you're asking Christians to buy into. It's a lot bigger than just accepting that another prophet of God could be sent. You're asking Christians to accept that mean they accept as prophets weren't prophets at all. They were liars and deceivers.

All of that just so Mohammed could show up 600 years later claiming,"They got it all wrong, but I have the true story from God!"

Put yourself in a Christians shoes and tell me if you really believe that it'd be so easy to buy into the idea that Mohammed was a prophet.

This is why "because Mohammed said so" doesn't hold any water with me. I do not accept him as a true prophet and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

The thing about Islam that offends Christians more than anything is this complete hijacking and retelling of the story of Jesus. It is also one of the biggest items that destroys the credibility of the message of Islam. I'm happy to tell you that I respect the Islamic faith. I think there's a lot of good teachings in it. But please realize that your trampling all over things equivalent to "Everyone draw Mohammed day" and "Everyone burn the Quran day." If you want to convert Christians, telling them "Everything you know about Jesus is a lie" is a lousy place to start.
Just a point I'd like to make: I find the notion that any prophet or apostle is "the last messenger God will ever send," dropping off a book of scriptures as the definitive guide to everything from now on, and then just abandoning humankind -- I find this teaching to be completely ridiculous. God says he is the same yesterday, today and forever. Written scripture and living prophets coexisted for centuries. Why would God change programs if he is the same yesterday, today and forever? Why would there ever be an end to him sending prophets and messengers to mankind? I have always found the notion to be utterly preposterous.

The worst part is, because Islam teaches that there can be no more prophets, Muslims are obligated to refuse to listen even if an actual prophet of God was sent to them. It also effectively ties the hands of God/Allah, telling him what he can or can't do. Essentially, God/Allah can do anything ... except send a living prophet to deliver any message of any kind to mankind ... all because Mohammed said so.

That's another reason I can't accept Mohammed as a prophet. He claims that God tied his own hands and abandoned humankind. Why on earth would God do that??
Moses was a messenger from Allah
Jesus was a messenger from Allah
Muhammed was a messenger from Allah

Muhammed told us that the creator name is Allah

and this is the name we are using until now
the name of god did not change in Islam
and names should not be changed or translated


the word Elahi means my god

and we are also using the word Elahi when we say my god


so the creator name should be the same from the time of prophet Adam thru the time of jesus until the last day .


but you call the creator God

is that realy his name?


my point is that you have got some wrong facts about jesus thru the past years and becasue these wrong facts continued generation after generation it became as it correct and true.

in this clip of the documentary movie about jesus you can see that jesus

used the name Allah and Elahi as we still use

so we are the one who is in the right path

and you are the ones who go astray


YouTube - Passion of the Christ (PBUH) mentions about Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) as Mentioned in the Bible !
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,018 posts, read 54,523,130 times
Reputation: 66369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
"True fact" has verifiable evidence to support it. Please present the verifiable evidence to support your statement.


Really???? I, and no doubt the rest of the world would like to see verifiable evidence for that please. The historians of the world who have access to the Roman archives have obviously missed it huh?
The original long-form version is not available to the public.
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,335,973 times
Reputation: 2611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
The original long-form version is not available to the public.
Huh??
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