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Old 05-18-2011, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,040 posts, read 4,205,073 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While I agree there is a lot of truth in that, it is only a small part of the reason.

One part is common to all people, we all have a tendency to give a Robinhood type view to any small group or individuals who perplex the establishment or take on big governments and at least for a while elude capture. Think of some of past American "heroes" (Heroes in the sense of being admired by many)

Jesse James
Bonny and Clyde
Dilinger
"Bambi" the young female fugitive who eluded capture
B D Cooper the sky jacker

Add to that the desire we all have of thinking, that all people we see as being part of us, are good.


This is not just a Muslim idiosyncrasy. this is typical of all people.

Then look at the massive destruction that was done to Afghanistan in retaliation by western forces as "Punishment" for harboring bin Laden when in reality there was no way to keep him out and even worse we now learn that he was only in Afghaistan for a short period of time. It now seems he was in Pakistan during nearly all of the past 10 years.


As for Bin Laden, do I think he was a terrorist or a hero? The answer is neither. I do not know him personally and can only form an opinion based upon what I read, and what I read differs from source to source. But in any event what and who ever he was is now a moot point. I do know that he will face true judgement for his deeds and will be either rewarded or punished fairly by the best and truest of judges, Allaah(swt). It is not my place to judge him and I will not speak ill of the dead.
Rooting for every Muslim who manages to "stick it to the man" i.e. successfully assault the United States solves nothing. No matter how often and how visciously the Muslim of the world strike at the United States or Europe or Russia or India or China, it never changes the fact that their nations are backwards and stuck in the dark ages. No Muslim nation is a significant economic power in the world today. No Muslim nation is leading the world in new technology or science. Throwing rocks at absolutely ever other nation, religion and ideology on earth isn't helping Islam become great again.

As a very wise man (me) once posted here: http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...l#post18990855

Quote:
The Muslim world is in a situation that Muslims no doubt find unacceptable. They used to be the very pinnacle of learning, science, technology and culture. But while Islamic nations held to their tried and true ways, the rest of the world changed very rapidly. Now just like Rip Van Winkle, the Muslims are waking up to a world that has passed them by. Their culture and civilization are absolutely ancient.

Another example where the same thing happened is Japan. Japan tried for a couple centuries to pretend that the world outside of the Far East just wasn't there. When Commodore Matthew Perry pulled into Tokyo Bay with massive modern warships in 1854, the primitive Japanese didn't have any real answer for it. The US fleet could demand anything they wanted and there wasn't much Japan could do about it. They were humiliated by the fact that they couldn't do anything to stop the Americans or other European nations from doing whatever they wanted.

So how did they react? Instead of sulking and whining about the USA being such a big bully (all the things that the Islamic world is doing right now), Japan took a completely different approach. The plan: To become more advanced and "Western" than any Western power and to do it as quickly as possible. This meant dragging themselves out of the Dark Ages and into the 19th century ASAP. And because the Japanese people as a whole took on the challenge whole-heartedly to completely reinvent their entire culture, society and civilization, they succeeded. In 1905 Japan absolutely embarrassed one of the premier European powers - Russia. From that point on, the world had to accept that Japan was not just another primitive distant nation. They had to come to terms that this obscure and distant island nation was every bit a world power. And despite the setback of World War II, Japan has actually never looked back. They are the third most powerful economic force in the world and many extreme-precision parts aren't made anywhere else.

Important point to note: Japan did not sacrifice it's religious identity in the process though they did have to modify and update many primitive and outdated customs.

The Islamic world on the other hand seems content to sit and sulk and do nothing to change their status as being the most backwards and uncivilized of all civilizations and cultures in the world. They see the "infidel" world prospering and wonder why their god would let this happen to them, when in reality they did it to themselves by stubbornly refusing to change with the times. Much of the Muslim world is angry and looking for someone or something to vent their anger on. Their current pathetic status must be somebody's fault and rather than admit that its Islam as it is practiced currently holds the lion's share of the blame for stifling progress at every turn. Blaming their religion would be blasphemy I suppose. So they frantically look around to find someone or something to blame for their fate.

The Muslim world needs to start by admitting that they have only themselves to blame and then doing something about it. Extremism thrives and flourishes in the current world of sitting and sulking and blaming everyone and everything but yourself for your own problems. So what the Muslim world needs to do is follow Japan's example, quite whining and fix it. Time to join the rest of the world in the 21st century already!
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:25 PM
 
591 posts, read 561,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Rooting for every Muslim who manages to "stick it to the man" i.e. successfully assault the United States solves nothing. No matter how often and how visciously the Muslim of the world strike at the United States or Europe or Russia or India or China, it never changes the fact that their nations are backwards and stuck in the dark ages. No Muslim nation is a significant economic power in the world today. No Muslim nation is leading the world in new technology or science. Throwing rocks at absolutely ever other nation, religion and ideology on earth isn't helping Islam become great again.

As a very wise man (me) once posted here: http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...l#post18990855

This site won't let me rate your posts positive as much as I try. Please stop being so consistantly good. I am not allowed to rate positive for someone twice in a row. Let someone else be good for a while in between posts, please. Thank you.
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Rooting for every Muslim who manages to "stick it to the man" i.e. successfully assault the United States solves nothing. No matter how often and how visciously the Muslim of the world strike at the United States or Europe or Russia or India or China, it never changes the fact that their nations are backwards and stuck in the dark ages. No Muslim nation is a significant economic power in the world today. No Muslim nation is leading the world in new technology or science. Throwing rocks at absolutely ever other nation, religion and ideology on earth isn't helping Islam become great again.

As a very wise man (me) once posted here: http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...l#post18990855
The majority of us do live in the "Modern" world. In the US alone there are more Muslims than in the 6 smallest Arab nations combined. Islam is a religion not a nationality, we are in every Nation except maybe Iceland. we are of all colors and Nationalities. We are in advanced nations and in primitive Nations. Here in the USA we typically have above average education and income and do contribute to modern progress.

It is true some of us do live in very primative nations and are very poorly educated.but,also a very sizable number of us were born in and live in modern nations and live a very progressive life style.
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,509,092 times
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And then some people in this developed society of progress for the self-gratification turn themselves out self-absorbed, progressive on the status of never succeeding honestly why the fake credit goes to Them, and unloyal to the company self-loathing attitudes.
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,040 posts, read 4,205,073 times
Reputation: 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The majority of us do live in the "Modern" world. In the US alone there are more Muslims than in the 6 smallest Arab nations combined. Islam is a religion not a nationality, we are in every Nation except maybe Iceland. we are of all colors and Nationalities. We are in advanced nations and in primitive Nations. Here in the USA we typically have above average education and income and do contribute to modern progress.

It is true some of us do live in very primative nations and are very poorly educated.but,also a very sizable number of us were born in and live in modern nations and live a very progressive life style.
I'm talking about nations where there is a strong majority of Muslims. It is commendable that Muslims can integrate into nations that are more progressive and advanced.

But it is quite puzzling that every nation on earth that has a strong majority Muslim population seems to be backwards, economically insignificant and not making any real progress. Most of them seem to be stuck at a dead stop.

The three most populous nations with a very strong Muslim majority:
1.) Indonesia is the fourth largest population in the world but only the 18th strongest economy in the world. It's 237 million people is less productive than the Netherlands which only boasts 17 million people. With about half the population, Japan is more than 8 times more productive than Indonesia.
2.) Pakistan is the 6th most populous nation on earth but has the 47th most powerful economy.
3.) Bangladesh is the 8th most populous nation on earth, yet it is the 57th biggest economy.

The trend is pretty much universal among all Muslim nations. Your big oil producers get a significant bump from their oil production but they're not doing anything else -- when the oil runs out, what will they do?
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,040 posts, read 4,205,073 times
Reputation: 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball Pean View Post
This site won't let me rate your posts positive as much as I try. Please stop being so consistantly good. I am not allowed to rate positive for someone twice in a row. Let someone else be good for a while in between posts, please. Thank you.
LOL, thanks.
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
I'm talking about nations where there is a strong majority of Muslims. It is commendable that Muslims can integrate into nations that are more progressive and advanced.

But it is quite puzzling that every nation on earth that has a strong majority Muslim population seems to be backwards, economically insignificant and not making any real progress. Most of them seem to be stuck at a dead stop.

The three most populous nations with a very strong Muslim majority:
1.) Indonesia is the fourth largest population in the world but only the 18th strongest economy in the world. It's 237 million people is less productive than the Netherlands which only boasts 17 million people. With about half the population, Japan is more than 8 times more productive than Indonesia.
2.) Pakistan is the 6th most populous nation on earth but has the 47th most powerful economy.
3.) Bangladesh is the 8th most populous nation on earth, yet it is the 57th biggest economy.

The trend is pretty much universal among all Muslim nations. Your big oil producers get a significant bump from their oil production but they're not doing anything else -- when the oil runs out, what will they do?
To be honest I do not know why Indonesia has not moved further ahead. it's neighbor Malaysia which is also predominately Muslim has a much higher standard of living and has less resources.

Pakistan is a very new country only coming into existance in 1947. In my opinion it was a failed experiment and only demonstrates the error of moving one group of people out of a land and move another group in. Until 1947 Pakistan was a State of India and was predominately Hindu. When it was opened for the Muslims of India to come to nobody foresaw that the countries resources would be too little to sustain the sudden increase in population. It has never recovered from it's traumatic start and has had a long history of very corrupt government.

Bangladesh is basically a concentration camp for Muslims exiled from India. It too was an Indian state, but it is essentially unwanted swamp land with severe annual flooding. It is an area too small for the huge number of exiles from India.

The oil nations were nearly unoccupied land until the 1950s. the promise of oil wealth and no need to work attracted far too many people than the land can support. the land has no resources, is not suited for agriculture and the only income is oil. I predict that as soon as the oil boom is seen to be down hill most will take their oil wealth and get out returning the land to barren desert. Most people I know in the oil nations are actually only part time residents and most have homes in other countries. If you look at the average income, they can afford to live whereever they desire, sadly none have ever had the need to work since the 1950s.
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Old 05-19-2011, 01:06 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,040 posts, read 4,205,073 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
To be honest I do not know why Indonesia has not moved further ahead. it's neighbor Malaysia which is also predominately Muslim has a much higher standard of living and has less resources.

Pakistan is a very new country only coming into existance in 1947. In my opinion it was a failed experiment and only demonstrates the error of moving one group of people out of a land and move another group in. Until 1947 Pakistan was a State of India and was predominately Hindu. When it was opened for the Muslims of India to come to nobody foresaw that the countries resources would be too little to sustain the sudden increase in population. It has never recovered from it's traumatic start and has had a long history of very corrupt government.

Bangladesh is basically a concentration camp for Muslims exiled from India. It too was an Indian state, but it is essentially unwanted swamp land with severe annual flooding. It is an area too small for the huge number of exiles from India.

The oil nations were nearly unoccupied land until the 1950s. the promise of oil wealth and no need to work attracted far too many people than the land can support. the land has no resources, is not suited for agriculture and the only income is oil. I predict that as soon as the oil boom is seen to be down hill most will take their oil wealth and get out returning the land to barren desert. Most people I know in the oil nations are actually only part time residents and most have homes in other countries. If you look at the average income, they can afford to live whereever they desire, sadly none have ever had the need to work since the 1950s.
As stated, the trend continues from there.
4.) Egypt has 80 million people and is the 15th largest population on earth, yet ranks 40th in economic strength. Egypt has about the same population with Germany. Egypt has a 0.2 trillion GDP to Germany's 3.3 trillion.
5.) Iran has 75 million people and is the 17 most populous nation on earth, but 29th in GDP.
6.) Turkey with it's population of 73 million is probably the only exception to the rule of Muslim nations underperforming. 18th in population, 17th in GDP.
7.) Sudan is 30th in population and 64th in GDP.
8.) Algeria is 35th in population and 49th in GDP.
9.) Morocco is 37th in population and 59th in GDP.
10.) Iraq is 39th in population and 62nd in GDP.
11.) Malaysia you already mentioned as an exception. They are 44th in population and 37th in GDP, however they are also only 60% Muslim, so not as overwhelming a majority as most other nations I've listed. Is it the non-Muslim population that makes them productive? Hard to say.
12.) Uzbekistan is 45th in population and 81st in GDP
13.) Yemen is 51st in population and 87th in GDP.
14.) Syria is 54th in population and 67th in GDP.
15.) Niger is 64th in population and 139th in GDP.
16.) Senegal is 72nd in population and 106th in GDP.
17.) Chad is 75th in population and 130th in GDP.

There is definitely a trend here. Predominantly Muslim nations are drastically underperforming. Exceptions are very few and far between. The point is not to say, "Islam is inferior!!" Anyone saying that doesn't know their history. But clearly, Islam is not showing up well here. It's like I said, Islam is in the same position now as Japan was in the 1800's. (Lets not forget, Japan is an extremely resource-poor land.) The Muslim nations made the choice to cling to a lot of old and outdated culture and now the world has left them in the dust. The only decision to be made:
A.) Accept that Muslim nations are always going to be inferior and whine and complain about it a lot.
or
B.) Get motivated, get determined and get to work. Refuse to accept inferiority. The Muslim nations can choose to drag themselves out of the dark ages and into the 21st century. It's just a matter getting organized and then just doing it.

And some of the Muslim nations have one huge thing going for them: Income from oil. Why oh why do they NOT build up a vibrant and strong economic foundation with all of that income?
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Old 05-19-2011, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
As stated, the trend continues from there.
4.) Egypt has 80 million people and is the 15th largest population on earth, yet ranks 40th in economic strength. Egypt has about the same population with Germany. Egypt has a 0.2 trillion GDP to Germany's 3.3 trillion.
5.) Iran has 75 million people and is the 17 most populous nation on earth, but 29th in GDP.
6.) Turkey with it's population of 73 million is probably the only exception to the rule of Muslim nations underperforming. 18th in population, 17th in GDP.
7.) Sudan is 30th in population and 64th in GDP.
8.) Algeria is 35th in population and 49th in GDP.
9.) Morocco is 37th in population and 59th in GDP.
10.) Iraq is 39th in population and 62nd in GDP.
11.) Malaysia you already mentioned as an exception. They are 44th in population and 37th in GDP, however they are also only 60% Muslim, so not as overwhelming a majority as most other nations I've listed. Is it the non-Muslim population that makes them productive? Hard to say.
12.) Uzbekistan is 45th in population and 81st in GDP
13.) Yemen is 51st in population and 87th in GDP.
14.) Syria is 54th in population and 67th in GDP.
15.) Niger is 64th in population and 139th in GDP.
16.) Senegal is 72nd in population and 106th in GDP.
17.) Chad is 75th in population and 130th in GDP.

There is definitely a trend here. Predominantly Muslim nations are drastically underperforming. Exceptions are very few and far between. The point is not to say, "Islam is inferior!!" Anyone saying that doesn't know their history. But clearly, Islam is not showing up well here. It's like I said, Islam is in the same position now as Japan was in the 1800's. (Lets not forget, Japan is an extremely resource-poor land.) The Muslim nations made the choice to cling to a lot of old and outdated culture and now the world has left them in the dust. The only decision to be made:
A.) Accept that Muslim nations are always going to be inferior and whine and complain about it a lot.
or
B.) Get motivated, get determined and get to work. Refuse to accept inferiority. The Muslim nations can choose to drag themselves out of the dark ages and into the 21st century. It's just a matter getting organized and then just doing it.

And some of the Muslim nations have one huge thing going for them: Income from oil. Why oh why do they NOT build up a vibrant and strong economic foundation with all of that income?
Also note that with very few exceptions(Turkey, Malaysia) the nations named are desert countries with no natural resources except for oil. Productivity does depend on having the materials to be productive. In nearly all of those countries everything needs to be imported in. Even water. It is basically uninhabitable land.

During the Golden Age of Islam, the Islamic world then included all of Andalusia (Much of Southern Europe) very fertile productive land.
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:41 AM
 
1,811 posts, read 978,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
There is no such thing as Sharia Law. If it is Sharia, it CAN"T be law. It is just a bunch of BS from a nut job who sat on a mountain and wrote a bun of jibberish and not a bunch of fools want to destroy humanity because the nutjob on the mountain said the make-believe diety he created, aka allah, said so.

Can you say CULT.
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