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Old 05-20-2011, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boompa View Post
Does Christianity allow Porn?
Ask Jerry Falwell or Terry Jones.
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Old 05-20-2011, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boompa View Post
Does Christianity allow Porn?
Unless you can find a Christian who doesn't believe in the Bible, then they have this bit of wisdom on the matter:

Matthew 5:27-30
27“You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’e
28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.


Properly understanding verses 29 and 30 as metaphorical what does all of this add up to? If you look at a woman that is not your wife (or a man that is not your husband) and think lustful thoughts, you are sinning against God. And if you should find yourself thinking dirty thoughts about anyone you are not married to: Sever the friendship. Stop going to whatever place it happens altogether. Block yourself from that source of lustful thoughts in every way possible. Even consider quitting your job if your job is a problem and there is no other way.

So the answer to your question is pretty simple: Does pornography cause the viewer to have lustful thoughts about somebody that is not their spouse? If so then yes Christianity is explicitly against it.
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Old 05-20-2011, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Which they did through colonization. Perhaps the small islands that make up the UK had little resources, but the British empire encompassed much of the world including India, the mid east, Coastal Africa, Much of the Americas.

Conquering lands and exporting their religion. You don't need resources if you conquer the lands that do have them. Perhaps the Western world fears that the Islamic world will do to them what they did,
The Islamic world already did. Once upon a time the Christian Church was more or less ruled by a council of the 5 most important bishops in the five most important cities in all of Christendom. These five cities were the core of Christendom and geographically central to the religion. They were Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople and Rome. Currently only 1 remains in Christian hands - Rome, which was considered the only holy city that was off in the wild frontier in early Christian times. The loss of these 4 cities (and all of the mostly Christian surrounding territory) wasn't the result of massively successful proselyting on the part of Islam, it happened by conquest.

The colonial era of European history isn't necessarily anything to be proud of, but let's bear in mind that colonial rule of Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Indonesia, India (which would be today's India, Pakistan and Bangladesh) was not accompanied by mass forced conversion to Christianity. In the case of the nations of Northern Africa it might have even made sense in a way since those lands were once almost entirely Christian. But it didn't play out like that obviously. Yes there's a lot more details to the story but the end results of each religion's respective mass-conquest kind of speak for themselves.
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Old 05-20-2011, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
The Islamic world already did. Once upon a time the Christian Church was more or less ruled by a council of the 5 most important bishops in the five most important cities in all of Christendom. These five cities were the core of Christendom and geographically central to the religion. They were Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople and Rome. Currently only 1 remains in Christian hands - Rome, which was considered the only holy city that was off in the wild frontier in early Christian times. The loss of these 4 cities (and all of the mostly Christian surrounding territory) wasn't the result of massively successful proselyting on the part of Islam, it happened by conquest.
Christianity was pretty much in decline in Alexandria by the year 395, the Great Libraries had already been destroyed. The Heresy of Arius was widespread. By the time the Arabs arrived in 642 Alexandria was no longer a religious center nor a center of commerce.

Jerusalem does not seem to have ever been much of a Christian Center. I admit I do not have much scholastic background about Jerusalem, so excuse the cut and paste job.

Quote:
6-36Pontius Pilate, Roman procurator of Judea for 10 years
31 April 25 / Nisan 14Crucifixion of Jesus
41-44Agrippa, king of Judea, builds new city wall (The "Third Wall"). 44Death of Herod Agrippa 63Temple completed 64 66-73The Great Revolt - The War of the Jewsagainst the Romans 70Fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the SecondTemple by Titus 73Fall of Masada 132-135Bar Kochba's war of freedom - Jerusalem again the JewishCapital 135Emperor Hadrian's total destruction of Jerusalem and building of new walls and new city renamed Aelia Capitolina — Jews notallowed in Jerusalem

[SIZE=4]324 — 638[/SIZE] [SIZE=6]The Byzantine Period[/SIZE]

326Queen Helena, mother of Emperor Constantine the Great, visits Jerusalem, determines locations of events associated with the last days of Jesus, and causes churches to be build to commemorate them, most notably the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in AD 335.

438Empress Eudocia permits Jews to live in Jerusalem 614Persian conquest of Jerusalem — They destroy most churches and expel Jews 629Recaptured by Byzantines.

[SIZE=4]638 — 1099[/SIZE] [SIZE=6]The Early Muslim Period[/SIZE]

638Six years after Mohammed's death, the Caliph Omar enters Jerusalem and Jews are readmitted to Jerusalem 691Dome of the Rock completed by Caliph Abd al-Malik 701The construction of the al-Aqsa mosque completedby Caliph al-Walid 1010Caliph al-Hakim orders destruction of synagoguesand churches

[SIZE=4]1099 — 1244[/SIZE]

[SIZE=6]The Crusader Kingdom[/SIZE]
1099Crusaders, led by Godfrey de Bouillon, capture ofJerusalem following Pope Urban's call in 1096. Baldwin I declared King of Jerusalem 1187Kurdish general Saladin captures Jerusalem from Crusaders. He permits Jews and Muslims to return and settle in the city. 1192Richard the Lion Heart attempts to re-capture Jerusalembut fails. Treaty with Saladin permitting Christians to worship at theirHoly sites. 1219City walls razed by Sultan Malik-al-Muattam 1244Khawarizmian Turks capture Jerusalem. End of Crusader rule.

[SIZE=4]1260 — 1517[/SIZE]

SOURCE


Antioch was pretty much destroyed by the great Earth Quake of 526 and was pretty much in ruins by the time of the arrival of Muslims in 637.

Constantinople: Pretty much lost it's place as a center of Christianity after it was over run by Attila the Hun in 447. Christianity did not play any role in Constantinople again until the Rise of the Byzantine Empire in 532.Between then there was numerous wars with the Huns, Slavs, Goths and Visigoths until the invasion by the Persians in the Early 7th Century. The Persians were conquered by the Arabs in about the early 640s. Which brought Islam into Contantinople.
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Old 05-21-2011, 03:47 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Woodrow LI , first of all, the big item you tried to paste in ... I can't read it.

What I think you lack is a foundational understanding of what was going on from the start of Christianity till the fall of Constantinople in 1453. I don’t know where your source of information got their “facts” but they pretty well butchered it.

The first thing to realize is that the obvious one: Christianity starts in Jerusalem and spreads from there. So from 33 AD till 300 AD most new Christians were in the Eastern Empire with far fewer in the Western Empire. Alexandria and Antioch were the other two major cities from which Christianity spread early on. The eastern half of the Roman Empire was Greek speaking while the western half spoke mostly Latin. The East was much more populated and it was also much more civilized and settled, with Egypt as the biggest prize of all. So it was the Eastern Greek speaking portion of the empire where Christianity was strongest.

Now fast forward to Constantine. The man was probably something of a closet-Christian before he consolidated power and established himself as sole emperor of the empire. The city of Rome had been steadily declining for a long time by then. It was also extremely well established as a pagan city dedicated to the Roman gods.

Rather than trying to change the notoriously stubborn city of Rome into a Christian city, Constantine went with an entirely different tactic: Build a newer, better Rome. Make it bigger, grander and stronger than the original. And build it from the ground up as a Christian city in the east where there were more Christians anyways. So Constantinople was born, built on top of the ancient Greek city-colony of Byzantion. If you wanted to be anyone of significance in Constantine’s new empire, you wanted to be in Constantinople. If you wanted to make it in Constantinople, you had to be Christian. And the people of Greece, Macedonia, Asia Minor, Egypt, Syria and Judea had a capital that was closer to where they (the significant majority of the empire’s population) lived! Better yet, it was a Greek speaking city just like them!

Starting with Constantine, the rapid conversion of the Roman Empire to Christianity is largely because of the Christian influence of Constantinople. So a solid grasp of the Byzantine Roman Empire is essential:


First off, the Eastern Empire did not call it self “Byzantine” that was a Western invention. They called themselves the Roman Empire because that is what they were. The Eastern Empire didn't just pop into existence, it was a natural continuation of the Roman Empire.

Rome and the Latin speaking west continued to decline. Corrupt from within and overwhelmed by barbarian hordes from without. Revisionist Roman Catholic history doesn’t like to admit it but their side of the empire was a minor side show off in the “uncivilized wastelands.” Still, due to it’s geo-political importance, Rome was long acknowledged as part of the Pentarchy of the five ruling Christian cities: Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople and Rome. Even as the west declined, well somebody had to represent the wild frontiers of Christendom and Rome fit the bill nicely.

Constantinople was clearly the greatest of the five. Often, the Patriarchs of Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria felt bullied by the combined power of the Patriarch and Emperor in Constantinople. Since the Greek speaking east viewed the Latin speaking west as semi-relevant outsiders, the Patriarch of Rome – the Pope – was often sought out as an impartial mediator to settle disputes between the four Greek Patriarchates. (My best guess is that this is largely where the notion that the Pope was the supreme leader of Christendom got started.)

While the Eastern Empire remained vibrant and prosperous, the Western Empire continued to decline farther and farther into chaos. Constantinople was such a formidable fortress that one barbarian army after another quickly gave up and looked westward for easier lands to pillage and conquer. Attila the Hun did wreak havoc throughout the Balkans, but he utterly failed to take Constantinople. He would not be the last to fail. Attila decided to seek easier conquest in the West where he met far less resistance. It wasn’t long before the West was overrun and all vestiges of Imperial rule evaporated. The Germanic invaders dominated. Rome was sacked in 410AD, in 455AD and 546AD. (Later on, the Arabs looted outside the city of Rome in 846AD but failed to take the city. The Normans sacked Rome in 1084.) For it’s part, Constantinople was never taken nor conquered by non-Christian outside invaders from 330 AD to 1453 AD. The Eastern Empire quite literally the fortifying wall that protected Christendom’s weaker lands from being overrun. Hoping to restore order in the West, Emperor Justinian even reconquered much of the Western Empire. It didn’t last though and the West slid back into chaos. The Pope in Rome was left to make his peace with the roving armies of Huns, Goths, Vikings, Avars, etc. Western Christendom’s best chance for survival was simple: Convert the heathen barbarians and then make peace with them.

Disaster struck the Eastern Empire in when the Sassanid (Persian) Empire overran the Byzantine frontiers and took Antioch, Syria, Jerusalem, Palestine and Egypt in the early 600’s AD. After a long and costly struggle, they regained all of the lands long held by the Eastern Empire. Then disaster struck harder and more stunningly as the Arab Islamic forces invaded the very weakened Empire and dealt the Romans a devastating defeat at Battle of Yarmouk. Egypt, Palestine, Jerusalem, Syria and Antioch were once again lost. After 645 AD, the bread-basket of the Empire and most important territory – Egypt was never retaken by Roman forces again.

As to the library at Alexandria, there is a lot of uncertainty. Ancient and modern sources identify four possible occasions for the partial or complete destruction of the Library of Alexandria:
1.) Julius Caesar's Fire in The Alexandrian War, in 48 BC
2.) The attack of Aurelian in the 3rd century AD;
3.) The decree of Coptic Pope Theophilus in AD 391;
4.) The Muslim conquest in 642 AD or thereafter.

Whatever the case may be, Alexandria went from being one of the greatest cities in the world to being a small town amidst ruins by the 1700’s. Some blame it’s decline on Islam and some do not.

Jerusalem was besieged for months until the Patriarch of Jerusalem surrendered. The Muslim version of events sounds bizarre and has an unreal made-up feel to it. True or not, they claim it to be a bloodless victory. It was also a siege so it's kind of contradictory to reality. People starve to death in sieges.

The fall of Antioch was an absolutely bloody affair with the Romans losing 10,000 of their forces at the Battle of Iron Bridge – which was a prelude to the siege and fall of Antioch. Antioch would exchange hands from Roman to Muslim and back again many times over the next centuries.

The Roman Empire spent the next 800 years at the front line of the ongoing war between Christianity and Islam. After trying and failing for 800 years, the Muslims finally took the city of Constantinople in 1453 AD under Sultan Mehmet II. The borders of the Roman Empire waxed and waned over the years. Sometimes help came from the West. Sometimes they made their own successes. But during that 800 years time, the rest of Christianity had time to civilize the Gothic and other barbarian converts, grow stronger and begin to thrive. The Christian religion owes its 4th and 5th century boom in growth and it’s survival through the Middle Ages to the city of Constantinople. It was the greatest Christian city in the world for 1000 years and it is probably the most unbeatable fortress city in human history.

It was really the incursions of Islam and the loss of the great cities of the East that shifted the center of Christendom over to the city of Rome – the last of the five great cities still in Christian hands.
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Old 05-21-2011, 07:57 AM
 
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Excellent posts and scholarship, godofthunder! Do not let the attempted revisionist deceptions of Islamic apologists deter you.
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Old 05-21-2011, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Excellent posts and scholarship, godofthunder! Do not let the attempted revisionist deceptions of Islamic apologists deter you.
History tends to be in the words of the writer. Actually, my sources were from non-Islamic sources, particularly the large thing about Jerusalem that did not post properly. which I also included the source for. The word Source should be a clickable link.

I will try to find better sources for the stuff I said regarding Constantinople, Antioch and Alexandria.

I do agree that godofthunder did a very good reply. It does take views from all sources to see the full story of what happened in the past. All written history is biased. The more views one sees the better they can learn what really did take place.
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Old 05-21-2011, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
History tends to be in the words of the writer. Actually, my sources were from non-Islamic sources, particularly the large thing about Jerusalem that did not post properly. which I also included the source for. The word Source should be a clickable link.

I will try to find better sources for the stuff I said regarding Constantinople, Antioch and Alexandria.

I do agree that godofthunder did a very good reply. It does take views from all sources to see the full story of what happened in the past. All written history is biased. The more views one sees the better they can learn what really did take place.
One of my best sources was a video series: The World Of Byzantium. That is from The Teaching Company and I wish there was a way to find it for cheaper. The Eastern Roman Empire is something that history often overlooks for some reason.

I'm seriously enjoying the dialog and I really appreciate Woodrow LI for bringing an intelligent Muslim voice to the conversation.

There are two perspectives to the story and what I've laid out is largely from a Christian point of view because that is the perspective that I feel Muslims are lacking. To them, Islamic conquest of Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch and eventually Constantinople were some of the greatest triumphs of their religion's history. The fact that Islam swept across such powerful and long enduring empires as the Persian and Roman Empires really is absolutely amazing. But the perspective on the matter they tend to lack is what a horrible tragedy for Christianity to lose their great cities with very little hope of ever regaining them. Islam tends to forget that they were the imperialist conquerers first. They don't tend to view themselves that way, but it's very true. They pushed around a whole host of nations that were weaker than themselves. They went to the far corners of the world conquering. Most of it was not all kisses, love and peace. Islamic rulership was sometimes benevolent and sometimes horribly cruel -- just like the European colonial powers.

Colonialism and Imperialism -- such a strange thing, isn't it? When it's your people who are conquering you tend to feel a swelling sense of pride that your nation is so great. When you're the one getting run over, you don't tend to think it's so nice anymore.
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Old 05-21-2011, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
One of my best sources was a video series: The World Of Byzantium. That is from The Teaching Company and I wish there was a way to find it for cheaper. The Eastern Roman Empire is something that history often overlooks for some reason.

I'm seriously enjoying the dialog and I really appreciate Woodrow LI for bringing an intelligent Muslim voice to the conversation.

There are two perspectives to the story and what I've laid out is largely from a Christian point of view because that is the perspective that I feel Muslims are lacking. To them, Islamic conquest of Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch and eventually Constantinople were some of the greatest triumphs of their religion's history. The fact that Islam swept across such powerful and long enduring empires as the Persian and Roman Empires really is absolutely amazing. But the perspective on the matter they tend to lack is what a horrible tragedy for Christianity to lose their great cities with very little hope of ever regaining them. Islam tends to forget that they were the imperialist conquerers first. They don't tend to view themselves that way, but it's very true. They pushed around a whole host of nations that were weaker than themselves. They went to the far corners of the world conquering. Most of it was not all kisses, love and peace. Islamic rulership was sometimes benevolent and sometimes horribly cruel -- just like the European colonial powers.

Colonialism and Imperialism -- such a strange thing, isn't it? When it's your people who are conquering you tend to feel a swelling sense of pride that your nation is so great. When you're the one getting run over, you don't tend to think it's so nice anymore.

Thank you for the kind words. I too am enjoying the dialog. I have no need to agree to appreciate the intelligence of others. Stagnation is the only result to expect if you limit your interaction to those you agree with.

I will try getting back to this thread later today or tomorrow. today is a somewhat hectic day. I have to meet some people in McClusky ND and then run over to Mandan ND to check on our horses and somewhere in between handle a few business transactions.
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Old 05-22-2011, 07:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffington
Can I say that while you are right that I don't know where they came from, I also don't give a damn where or when they came from.
If you don't give a damn then just stop talking about something you don't have a clue about it!! .
Quote:
I care only that they we expunged from Civilization (well, actually when Sharia is institutied, Civilization is automatically expunged.
When we applied sharia law in the right way we ruled the world for more than 300 years .
We had universities and hospitals when you were treated your patients in churches , Baghdad once known as the "Center of Learning" worldwide throughout the high Middle Ages etc ...
Quote:
IMHO, the biggest threat to humanity is not Communism, Nuclear Weapons etc., but is, in fact, Islam. Islam and humanity are fully incompatible. And saying that only parts of Islam are a threat is like minimizing the threat of a Great White Shark, or a Tiger, or Mamba snake by saying that only a small part of it is dangerous.
Nowhere to run .. no place to hide .. Islam will rule the world again
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