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Old 05-21-2011, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
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GrandviewGloria As a descendant of white Scandinavian and Germanic folk, I've always felt a lot of guilt for all the terrible things that happened to the Native American people. So I really liked hearing all of that. It offers a sense that the mass migration of Europeans to North and South America may not have been all bad for the Native populations.

 
Old 05-21-2011, 07:48 PM
 
591 posts, read 561,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Christianity was not a bed of roses either. .... It was just as violent in its history and many many people were killed at the hands of Christians just because they were not Christian and refused to convert.....

Christianity has nothing to brag about.........

Christianity has every good reason to despise anything Muhammad in nature. Islam is a direct oppressor, insult, and perversion to Christianity in very specific and prfound manners. Muhammad was a pilager, thief, slave raping pedophile, who lied about Jesus and prevented any religion NEAR his peoples or they got the death penalty. I imagine there was a lot of fear against a brutal, evil, oppressive false religion that helped sparked the onrush. That doesn't make it cool to go on the rampage they did tho. I don't think it was about religion to a lot of them, as it was about controlling land and scooping up the booty. If you LOOKED Muslim, they would kill you and take your land. Man, that is some messed up times. wow.
 
Old 05-21-2011, 07:50 PM
 
591 posts, read 561,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Christianity was not a bed of roses either. .... It was just as violent in its history and many many people were killed at the hands of Christians just because they were not Christian and refused to convert.....

Christianity has nothing to brag about.........

There you go again blamming Christianity. The NT does not, and HAS not sanctioned anyone to spill blood. Read the scriptures. There is NOTHING in there that teaches violents towards anyone.
 
Old 05-21-2011, 08:04 PM
 
15,072 posts, read 13,672,310 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
J any conversion to Islam can only come through individual choice and by free will.
Tell that to Iranians, or what's left of them after "conversion to Islam" by Arabs. I suppose that invasion was just that - conversion through "individual choice..."
 
Old 05-21-2011, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,924 posts, read 31,815,566 times
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Originally Posted by Ball Pean View Post
There you go again blamming Christianity. The NT does not, and HAS not sanctioned anyone to spill blood. Read the scriptures. There is NOTHING in there that teaches violents towards anyone.
You know Bag of Hammers, I really don't think you have ever read the bible, let alone the new testament...There is scads of violence in the new testament.

Below are just two of well over 100 cruel and violent passages in the new testament.

Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. New Testament Cruelty
 
Old 05-21-2011, 10:37 PM
 
40,187 posts, read 26,814,572 times
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Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
No I don't think that Iran is getting Sharia Law right. I don't think the Taliban did either. The problem is they think they are getting it right.

So long as there is so much abundance of corruption and corruptibility in human beings, theocracy of any type tends to be a terrible idea. The problem is that it creates a broad system of non-equalization based upon religious beliefs. Whether it's Christians or Hindus or Muslims or any other religion implenting a theocratic system of government, handing any one religion overall responsiblity is going to lead to problems. Theocratic systems tend to presuppose that people in power will do the right thing, but this just isn't realistic. If you create separate courts and full governmental hierarchy separately for Muslims, Jews and Christians then you're beginning to create a system of segregation and exclusivity. You also potentially have three heads of state, one for each religion. So which one has supreme authority over the other two? If you merge them all together with Muslims ruling then you're ensuring tyranny based upon religious bigotry.

No matter how thoroughly you revamp or update or adjust Sharia, it's still a theocracy that presupposes that one religion -- Islam -- is right and everyone else is wrong.

In my opinion, it's either a choice between Sharia or peaceful integration of all peoples and religions. You really can't have it both ways.
Another great post, got . . . but they have no intention of partial Sharia. It is a deen . . . there is no separation of religion and state. They know it, intend it, and any proclamations to the contrary are deceptive propaganda to lull the infidels into piecemeal acquiescence to the inroads of their religion in their communities. Let France be a lesson to all.
 
Old 05-21-2011, 10:55 PM
 
15,072 posts, read 13,672,310 times
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Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
You know Bag of Hammers, I really don't think you have ever read the bible, let alone the new testament...There is scads of violence in the new testament.

Below are just two of well over 100 cruel and violent passages in the new testament.

Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. New Testament Cruelty
Yes, there are 100 "cruel and violent passages," in the New testament, but what they've got to do with Jesus?
Here is an example -
"God will send plagues, death, and famine on Babylon, and the kings "who have committed fornication with her" will be sad to see her burn. 18:8-9"
What it has got to do with Jesus?
Think about WWII for example - do you think it was Jesus who organized it, or when he was saying that he "came not to send peace, but a sword," wouldn't it be reasonable to understand that his arrival did not signify "peace and happiness" as anyone would have hoped, but in fact it predicted more "trials and tribulations" for the humankind, ( wars including,) which we saw happening for the last...oh, 2,000 years or so.
And when you quote "Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire" do you even now what god considers "good fruit" and why?
And when Jesus says that "we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell" - what part of it you don't understand, and again - how is it Jesus' fault? I mean what it has got to do with his "violence?"
See, it's not enough to *read the bible,* it's necessary to understand the whole concept of the "old covenant" ( agreement) between god and people, why it failed first time around and why the establishment of new covenant ( through Jesus) was necessary. Only then his parables will be understood much better, and there will be no need to ascribe him *violence* that comes as a result of someone's misinterpretations.
 
Old 05-21-2011, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,051 posts, read 4,213,853 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
You know Bag of Hammers, I really don't think you have ever read the bible, let alone the new testament...There is scads of violence in the new testament.

Below are just two of well over 100 cruel and violent passages in the new testament.

Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. New Testament Cruelty
sanspeur you do deserve better responses than what you're getting so I'll take a stab at it.

Why blame God for things that God didn't do? Consider for a moment: What if Jerusalem had accepted the peaceful teaching of Jesus? (and please let's not go off about the name again -- focus) If his teachings of "turn the other cheek" "bless them that curse you and despitefully use you" and "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" -- if those concepts had been accepted by the Jews at Jerusalem then would the First Roman-Jewish War have ever happened? Would it have been followed up by the Siege of Jerusalem, the destruction of the temple and the final defeat at Masada? Would that war have been followed up by Kito's War? If they had accepted the message of Jesus, would the Bar Kochba rebellion and subsequent old world genocide against the Jews -- the most horrible of the lot -- have ever happened at all??

My bet is no. None of that would have happened because the Jews wouldn't have been so bound and determined to rebel against Roman rule. They wouldn't have annoyed the Romans to the point where Jews were banned from the setting foot inside Palestine. None of it would have happened because following the teachings of Jesus would have been the cure for all the bad decisions they made.

Ever consider for a moment that God warns people of future events -- either natural disasters or catastrophe that people bring about by their own actions -- and how they can avoid them? The teachings of Jesus were the perfect recipe for avoiding the horrors that were visited upon the Jews from 33 AD (when they were warned) all the way till today. And unlike Sodom and Gomorrah, the results of their failure to heed the warning has led them to be tormented and driven from place to place, generation after generation after generation. I don't think God forced the Romans nor anyone else to attack the Jews. I don't think he pushed the Crusaders or the Spanish to attack them either. And I certainly am not going to lay the Holocaust at the feet of God mind-controlling Hitler and the people of Germany. But Jesus was the messenger who offered them a way to avoid all that and they didn't listen.
 
Old 05-21-2011, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
I admire your openmindedness. I am agnostic. I believe religion can neither be proven nor disproven. My view of ones worth is how much good one does here on earth, but if you can accept me, then I can accept you.
I am certain you and I will never accept each others views on religion, but I am very happy to accept you as a fellow human being and a fellow traveler on this planet called Earth.
 
Old 05-21-2011, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,051 posts, read 4,213,853 times
Reputation: 3048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am certain you and I will never accept each others views on religion, but I am very happy to accept you as a fellow human being and a fellow traveler on this planet called Earth.
Can't add to your rep again, but this statement is what it's all about.
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