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Old 05-26-2011, 07:43 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilVA View Post
If you take the Quran and the Torah out of the mix to figure out why both religions consider pork not kosher or not hallel only one assumption fits. Pigs are useless in a desert environment. from birth to death they give nothing during their lifetimes. So as a farm animal it was totally useless to tend an animal that only takes. so thus its charataristics carried into those books.

except of course that the Jews mostly lived in the hill country of Judea and Samaria, a med climate area, not a desert. Neighboring groups like the Moabites, philistines, etc DID raise pigs.

Sorry marvin harris.

 
Old 05-26-2011, 07:47 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
What was Jesus' opinion on all this?
Halacha doesn't say that pork "defiles" I recall reading that the famous passage you quote was about improperly tithed produce, which was BIG issue at the time, and a source of class conflict as well.

We are simply commanded not to eat pork. We dont do that to avoid a chnage in our ritual purity status, but purely to show our obedience to G-d's law. WHY he set up the law like that, is not for us to question.

(note - when a law creates real human hardship that cannot be addressed within the law, I WILL question it, as I believe G-d is just and merciful - I see no such issues in the prohibition on pork - note, halacha allows one to eat pork if its necesssary for health, following the principle of Pikuah Nefesh)
 
Old 05-26-2011, 08:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Halacha doesn't say that pork "defiles" I recall reading that the famous passage you quote was about improperly tithed produce, which was BIG issue at the time, and a source of class conflict as well.

We are simply commanded not to eat pork. We dont do that to avoid a chnage in our ritual purity status, but purely to show our obedience to G-d's law. WHY he set up the law like that, is not for us to question.

(note - when a law creates real human hardship that cannot be addressed within the law, I WILL question it, as I believe G-d is just and merciful - I see no such issues in the prohibition on pork - note, halacha allows one to eat pork if its necesssary for health, following the principle of Pikuah Nefesh)
These commandments seem to have some scientific validity behind them because basically the dietary laws are requesting that the children of G-d not eat the scavengers(janitors) of the earth.
 
Old 05-26-2011, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
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Quote:
except of course that the Jews mostly lived in the hill country of Judea and Samaria, a med climate area, not a desert.
Not the point. On limited resources they take and give nothing back from the day they are born to the day they die. They are not a work animal, milk animal, fur animal (sheering),etc.... What productive thing do they do while they are alive?

Quote:
Sorry marvin harris
And as per him.
  1. Quote:
    1. At present (or at some point in the past) Islamic society functions adequately in the Middle East.
    2. Islamic society functions adequately in the Middle East only if ecological goals are reached by proper domestic animal policy.
    3. If religious pig prohibition were present, then, as an effect, the ecological goals would be reached.
    4. Hence religious pig prohibition is present in Islam.
And once written, its part of the religion. People may move to areas that are not effected by the ecological factors, but the rules of the religion is what keeps them attached to that religion.
 
Old 05-26-2011, 08:53 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilVA View Post
Not the point. On limited resources they take and give nothing back from the day they are born to the day they die. They are not a work animal, milk animal, fur animal (sheering),etc.... What productive thing do they do while they are alive?
absolutely irrelevant. They eat scraps that otherwise are wasted, or forage in wasteland. The cost of keeping them is virtually zero, and they provide high quality animal protein. Which is why their raising was SO widespread across so many cultures. INCLUDING that of peoples adjoing the homeland of the early Israelites.

I will not address the mulims, who did originate in a desert. To apply that thinking to Jews, you have to assume they originated in the desert - which AFAICT runs counter to modern theories of Israelite origin.
 
Old 05-26-2011, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
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Quote:
The cost of keeping them is virtually zero,
And where does the "free" feed come from? And being from Bklyn how often did you ever see neighbors growing their own little pig farms in their back yards?


Quote:
I will not address the mulims, who did originate in a desert. To apply that thinking to Jews, you have to assume they originated in the desert - which AFAICT runs counter to modern theories of Israelite origin.
Jews originated in the Levant. Which is where? The Middle East or the Near East. Which is primarily covered in what? Sand.

Muslims originated where? Saudia Arabia. And where is it? The Middle East. And why do we think it originated there? Because the foundations for the Quran are in Medina & Mecca.

Last edited by Pruzhany; 05-26-2011 at 09:41 AM..
 
Old 05-26-2011, 09:33 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilVA View Post
And where does the "free" feed come from? And being from Bklyn how often did you ever see neighbors growing their own little pig farms in their back yards?

the free feed is agricultural and table waste, and wild vegetation found in uncultivated wastes. Do you really think that over history, most pigs were fed grain?

I dont recall pig farms in the back yards of Brooklyn. Not even among the gentiles. I believe that would have violated city ordinances. In any case, Brooklyn had a much higher population density than did ancient Judea.

The economics that made the pig widespread in RURAL AREAS in the preindustrial USA, in Europe, in east asia, even in Polynesia, dont really apply in big cities.
 
Old 05-26-2011, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
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Quote:
Do you really think that over history, most pigs were fed grain?
You need to google Pigs. Feral pigs and have caused substantial environmental damage in numerous areas. There are numerous reasons why they are not seen in open fields.
 
Old 05-26-2011, 10:01 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,790 posts, read 10,705,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilVA View Post
You need to google Pigs. Feral pigs and have caused substantial environmental damage in numerous areas. There are numerous reasons why they are not seen in open fields.

Oh, it may not have been long run sustainable. LOTS of agricultural practices, including ones widespread in the preindustrial world were like that, IIUC. Again I ask - do you deny that pig raising was very widespread in lots of cultures? SE asia, polynesia, new guinea, europe, and the post conquest Americas? And if so, what do you think drove the economics of that?
 
Old 05-26-2011, 10:19 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,790 posts, read 10,705,766 times
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marvin harris' book is in google books

The answer as to why harris believes that ecology explains the banning of pigs among Israelites is clear - he accepts that circa 1000 BCE the Israelites, previously pastoralists, engaged in "conquest". When he wrote that he simply was not up to date on the views of historians who see continuity between "canaanites" and Israelites.
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