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Old 06-02-2011, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,333,893 times
Reputation: 2611

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
As far as I am concerned as long as there is incitement and rockets from Hamas and suicide bombers Israel is still at war.
We have to appreciate that Palestinians consider their country to be occupied by an invading force. Don't know about you but I think I'd be doing pretty much the same thing were I in their shoes.

Quote:
Do Palestinians want peace? Then why in 1948 did they not take peace. All of the middle east was carved up by outside powers. The Palestinian territory was a territory. It was split into 2 parts a Jewish part and a Muslim part. There would have been a 2 state solution in 1948 if they had wanted a state but they said no and went to war. The war continues to this day via Hamas.
Well I think you ought to go back a little further than 1948 to get to the root of the problems. The the late 1800's might be worth looking at, when the Zionists started to colonise Palestine in a bid to create a 'Jewish Homeland'. That wasn't a problem initially but as more and more of them flooded in, many with the express wish of taking over the land for a Jewish state, the people that lived there started getting pretty jacked-off as you'd expect.

That simmered for decades and then Hitler's rise to power came along which caused another flood of refugees into the area and more dissent from the Arabs and the pot started to boil over.

1947 was when the UN intervened and recommended that 55% of Palestine should be given to the Jews. If you consider that at that time the Jews were only about 30% of the total population and owned under 7% of the land, you can see why the Palestinians were getting pretty pi$$y about it all.

Quote:
True, in fact many of those monsters we (USA) helped put in power. So maybe instead of going after a little tiny democracy we ought to be thinking about those with absolutely horrible human rights abuses. Right now many of those are massacring their own populations to stay in power.
I absolutely agree.

Quote:
Israel is not massacring the palestinians
Well many would disagree with you there but, moving on...

Quote:
Yes I am sure history and the Iraqis will look back and be glad Saddam was taken out.
I hope you're right. Time will tell.

Quote:
Yes it does and if Israel was not constantly under threat from Hamas and Palestinian terrorists I would absolutely agree with you. And if I saw the same effort being put into bringing down the tyranny coming out of other countries I would agree with you. But I don't I see a tiny democracy who has had to fight since day one for her very existence and the big countries with horrible dictatorships being supported by other countries because they have something the world wants being left alone.
...but Israel has to understand WHY it is being attacked. Israel is seen by the Palestinians, and most of the world, as a force that is occupying land that it has no right to be in. That is the crux of the matter my friend. It is world opinion (apart from the USA/UK) that they are illegally occupying Palestinian lands. If Canada invades America and occupies it's lands then Canada has no right to complain if Jazzymom and a few of her friends start throwing stones at them. The Palestinians feel the same way.
Quote:
I really believe that when Israel is no longer under rocket fire and can feel secure then there will be peace and there will be withdrawal from the west bank.
Well I sincerely hope you are right. I have known both Arabs and Jews and they are good peoples both. It's such a shame that they are at each others throat.

I don't condone Palestinian methods but I do sympathise with their cause - and when the rest of the world agree that you have been wronged but won't lift a finger to help you - then you have to fight alone and with whatever means you have at your disposal. I'm sure that both you and I would be doing the same were we in their position.

Another issue is that of 'Reasonable Force'. Yes, it's annoying to have a $5 home-made grenade come over your wall and destroy your rose garden but it doesn't warrant firing $2,000,000 worth of highly technical and accurate missiles at the guy that destroyed your rose garden.
Quote:
Israel withdrew from Gaza years ago and now it is run by Hamas and she is under bigger threat from rocket fire.
That's what happens when you put up a huge fence that separates families and stops people getting to their work...if they are allowed any work that is.

 
Old 06-02-2011, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,333,893 times
Reputation: 2611
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Where?
Sorry should have been more specific. They should withdraw to the pre 67 borders.

Quote:
certainly its very hard for israel to reach a consensus to take risks by withdrawing from further territory, when they are not assured that this wont lead to further attacks on what remains of Israel.
I think they are going to have to take the risk. There will be no progress until they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You've got to be kidding! The anti-Jewish bias in the UN is endemic. It has nothing to do with what is right since they ignore the CONSTANT attacks on Israel.
You can slap your head all you want pal but you need to ask yourself why Israel are being attacked.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
@Raifus

I have to agree with you world opinion against Israel is changing. It was supported mostly by the US & UK that support is weakening. One reason is Israel did not turn out to be the sweet, agarian, religious, Judaic community that the backers anticipated. Israel has a very large non practicing population and now has a very large atheist population. Possibly as high as 35% of the population. It also turned out the land really did not support large scale farming. The very early days of the Kibbutz looked promising and there would be peaceful settling. But their was not and is not enough productive land to support farming for all. That little parcel of land is overly populated. Over population quickly runs into animosity between the have and nave nots.

Quote:
  • 1995 study says 31% of Israelis do not believe in God, with an additional 6% choosing 'don't know,' for a total of 37% being atheist or agnostic.
  • Ireland is a far more religious country than Israel. In fact, Israel is one of the most secular countries in the world.

Study of religion on Israel in 1999.
  • 29 percent of Israeli Jews said they were "non-religious" but "somewhat observant".
  • 18 percent said they were "non-religious" and "totally non-observant".
  • 4 percent said they were "anti-religious" and "totally non-observant".
  • Only 65 percent of Israeli Jews believe in God.
SOURCE


To compound the issue, many orthodox Jews are anti-Israel

Check out this site for example



As Israel looses support, the more justified the Palestinians feel.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 10:14 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,793 posts, read 10,705,766 times
Reputation: 2515
"I think they are going to have to take the risk. There will be no progress until they do."

I think there will be progress when they withdraw as part of a peace deal with Palestinians who are ready to accept withdrawl from the West Bank as sufficient to end the conflict. Hamas remains an obstacle to that, however.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 10:15 AM
 
40,043 posts, read 26,720,362 times
Reputation: 6048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
You can slap your head all you want pal but you need to ask yourself why Israel are being attacked.
That's easy . . . every Muslim country in the region wants to eradicate Israel and supports the constant so-called Palestinian attacks. They have Gaza as a staging point for attacks which are ongoing and ceaseless. They want a return to the 1967 borders because they are less defensible and would provide other staging points for attacks. Israel would have to be suicidal to return to those borders. Your bias is palpable.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 10:17 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,793 posts, read 10,705,766 times
Reputation: 2515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
.That's what happens when you put up a huge fence that separates families and stops people getting to their work...if they are allowed any work that is.

The fence between Gaza and Israel seperates Gaza from the areas that are part of pre-1967 Israel. Israel has as much right as any other country to keep people from entering. If Israel keeping Gazans out is a justification for acts of violence against Israel, that implies that Israel has NO right to govern ANY land at all. Israel will NEVER accept that. I think most of the Western world, at least (not just the US and UK) do not expect Israel to accept that.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 10:20 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,793 posts, read 10,705,766 times
Reputation: 2515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
@Raifus

I have to agree with you world opinion against Israel is changing. It was supported mostly by the US & UK that support is weakening. One reason is Israel did not turn out to be the sweet, agarian, religious, Judaic community that the backers anticipated.

Israel has been heavily secular since independence = since BEFORE independence. It was FOUNDED to be that - secularism was an important part of labor Zionist ideology going back to the 1920s. (if anything, Israel is MORE religious now than it was in the 1950s and 1960s). That was never a problem for relations between Israel and europe. And of course Israel has been attempting to industrialize since independence as well.


As for sweet, well plenty of people I know who visit it and who live there find it very sweet
 
Old 06-02-2011, 10:22 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,793 posts, read 10,705,766 times
Reputation: 2515
also neturei karta are a tiny minority - even most of the antizionist Satmar hasidim dont like neturei Karta.

The orthodox jews who do not support Israel are mostly made up of folks hostile to the modern world - the most backward, socially reactionary folks in the Jewish community. Virtually all Orthodox Jews who embrace modernity are pro-Israel - and they are usually MUCH more hawkish on borders, etc than are non-orthodox and secular jews.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 10:27 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,793 posts, read 10,705,766 times
Reputation: 2515
the percentage who believe in god is very high compared to the other advanced western democracies, the relevant comparison. Judaism in ways large and small permeates Israeli life - I would look at home observances like lighting shabbos candles more than at how people answer a poll about god. Theological statements are less central to Judaism than some other religions.

Land for agriculture is not an issue. Israel is a modern, post industrial state - living on high tech industry, etc. Land is not what drives income distribution there. (water is an issue, but is one of the easier ones to deal with)

And note, the kibbutz movement has been mostly secular from the beginning, and has been one of the most secular forces in Israeli society.
 
Old 06-02-2011, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,497,518 times
Reputation: 1018
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
the percentage who believe in god is very high compared to the other advanced western democracies, the relevant comparison. Judaism in ways large and small permeates Israeli life - I would look at home observances like lighting shabbos candles more than at how people answer a poll about god. Theological statements are less central to Judaism than some other religions.
I have just a small comment on this point. Observance of religious customs is not a good way to find out what someone believes. I have known Jews in America who are atheists and still observe some of the strict dietary and other laws of Judaism (American playwright Arthur Miller being one). My family is atheist and we put up a Christmas tree every year. And, many atheist Swedes attend church services as a community event.

If you what to know what people believe religiously, the best way is to ask them and not try to infer beliefs from their behaviors.
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