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Old 06-04-2011, 08:24 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,424,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squall-lionheart View Post
My opinion :
Western countries came out from World War II with the "Holocaust" guilt .
Palestinians were the victims of that guilt .
Pre-or after 67 territory ... there is a fact that can not be denied to any fair person .
All the land occupied by a foreign power ... so there will be no peace ever until all the land returns back to those who were there at the time of the occupation ... those who have houses ... shops and green farms , Not to those who there ancestors were there thousands of years ago .
Now .. imagine a country to occupy another one under the excuse that their ancestors were here before a thousand year

No the Palestinians were not....

2 states were to come into being....


The Palestinian Grand mufti met with Hitler and collaborated with him..

As a passionate antisemite al-Husayni encouraged his followers to "kill the Jews wherever you find them". During World War II, he collaborated with the Nazis and, in 1941, met the Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler in Germany. He asked Hitler to back Arab independence and requested that Nazi Germany oppose the establishment in Palestine of a Jewish national home as part of the Pan-Arab struggle According to an American report, al-Husayni energetically recruited Muslims for the Waffen-SS, the Nazi Party's elite military command. He was promised the leadership of Palestine after German troops had driven out the British and exterminated the Jews living there. This would have meant the deaths of over 350,000 people. At the end of the war, he was allowed to flee to Syria as part of an attempt to prevent the alienation of Middle Eastern regimes.

Mohammad Amin al-Husayni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Photos and Documents of Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood

 
Old 06-04-2011, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
No the Palestinians were not....

2 states were to come into being....


The Palestinian Grand mufti met with Hitler and collaborated with him..

As a passionate antisemite al-Husayni encouraged his followers to "kill the Jews wherever you find them". During World War II, he collaborated with the Nazis and, in 1941, met the Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler in Germany. He asked Hitler to back Arab independence and requested that Nazi Germany oppose the establishment in Palestine of a Jewish national home as part of the Pan-Arab struggle According to an American report, al-Husayni energetically recruited Muslims for the Waffen-SS, the Nazi Party's elite military command. He was promised the leadership of Palestine after German troops had driven out the British and exterminated the Jews living there. This would have meant the deaths of over 350,000 people. At the end of the war, he was allowed to flee to Syria as part of an attempt to prevent the alienation of Middle Eastern regimes.

Mohammad Amin al-Husayni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Photos and Documents of Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood
There is no denying al-Husani colloberated with the Nazis. That was his choice, and he shall alone be responsible for the results of his choice. No Muslim represents Islam we each bear the responsibility for our own actions, Be it rewards or punishments.

There is also another side to Muslims and Naxis. Others made a different choice that the one al-Husani made.

Quote:
A photography exhibition at Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial this week recognizes the little-known role played by European Muslims in helping Jews during World War II.
The exhibition at Israel's official Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem honors Albanians who sheltered Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi persecution. Albania, a tiny European country with a Muslim majority, sheltered about 1,000 Jews who, with the exception of one family, survived Nazi occupation, according to officials.
SOURCE
 
Old 06-04-2011, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,036 posts, read 4,199,055 times
Reputation: 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by squall-lionheart
All the land occupied by a foreign power ... so there will be no peace ever until all the land returns back to those who were there at the time of the occupation ... those who have houses ... shops and green farms , Not to those who there ancestors were there thousands of years ago.
The problem I have with all the Muslims in the world whining about Palestine is that it's all HUGELY hypocritical! Recent history: Turkey invaded the 90% Greek Christian island of Cyprus and still occupies 1/2 of the island to this day. Where is the Muslim outrage and demands for Turkey to cease their occupation? Treatment of Christians, Hindus and Buddhists by Muslims right now is very often far worse that the treatment of the Palestinians. Where is the Muslim outrage demanding better treatment for "people of the book"?

The Muslim world is whining about how horribly mistreated the Palestinians are, yet look at the horrible things they do to each other! Look at the horrible things they do to non-Muslims! The Muslim world has done far, far worse things to each other and to non-Muslims since 1948 than anything Israel even dreamed of doing. Where is the outrage?

The Muslims of the Middle East have no business crying about Israel unless and until they stop doing worse things themselves. Stop killing Christians. Stop putting women to death for being raped. Stop being such primitives.

Quote:
We believe that the world have seen so many ethnic massacres .. so why was the sympathy and compensation was only for the Jews ?!!!
Why not? The Jews are unique in that they weren't just massacred once by one conquering power. They were massacred over and over again by absolutely everyone. Muslims, Persians, Europeans, Romans, Africans, you name it. Giving them a homeland of their own makes a ton of sense because history has clearly demonstrated that they simply cannot trust other nations to treat them like human beings. The truly bizarre thing is that it has ALWAYS been that way.

There is tremendous and disproportionally strong bias against the nation of Israel! Yet that's the way it has always been throughout history, so it should come as no surprise. It's the same unexplainable hatred that has followed the Jews wherever they've gone.

Quote:
even more important question :
Does it (Holocaust) happened the same way that they say it did or the whole thing was exaggerated ?!!!
To give you a glimpse, how many Jews were executed by gas compared to gas quantities required for the implementation of each process execution ? , If we consider that equation, we will find that Germany back then did not have that huge amount of gas to implement that huge number of executions ... etc ...
We sure sympathize with what happened truly , not with what have been exaggerated for the purpose of extortion the world .
First of all, I'm not really making much sense out of exactly what you're saying is "exaggerated" or otherwise inaccurate about the Jewish Holocaust. Are you saying that Germany had a shortage of poison gas, that the gas wasn't actually poisonous or that you could only kill one person at a time with it??

The Germans have always been very thorough just out of habit. The Holocaust was no exception. They carefully and thoroughly documented everything in great detail, thus inadvertantly making it the best documented genocide ever. The Nazis were looking for methods of killing massive numbers of Jews (and other undesirables) for minimal cost. Poison gas was just one of a long list of methods tried. Starvation took it's toll. Lining them up and firing a high powered rifle to kill as many as possible with one bullet was tried too. And sometimes a shower was just a shower, not a mass-gassing.

squall-lionheart your posts on this forum has quite thoroughly proven you to be hypocritical. You see the spreading of Islam by the sword, conquest of another religion's holy cities and the occupation of their lands as this wonderful thing! "Muhammed foretold this and this is just the beginning! We're going to conquer you all because it is the will of Allah! Praise Allah for giving us victory!" Yet when a tiny non-Muslim nation controls the tiniest scrap of Muslim-occupied lands it's the most horrible thing ever!

What I would suggest is that you step back from the Quran for a second, use your brain and think. Nobody wants to be conquered and ruled over by a theocratic regime based upon a religion they believe is false. The wars of conquest in early Islamic history were cruel, barbaric and unwelcome. The people didn't appreciate having their lands taken from them -- and few people have ever stolen more lands that were not rightfully their own than Islam. The peoples they conquered didn't appreciate centuries of occupation and constant pressure to convert - somemtimes "convert if you know what's best for you" and sometimes "convert or die." They didn't appreciate mass slaughters, rapes, tortures and crimes against them that were carried out with impunity, just because they were not Muslim. Israel is the tiniest of reversals where somebody took back something that Islam stole to begin with. Why is it so offensive when somebody else does back to Islam what they've done for countless centuries??? And why so much anger over such a tiny scrap of land???
 
Old 06-04-2011, 07:34 PM
 
40,045 posts, read 26,725,598 times
Reputation: 6048
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
The problem I have with all the Muslims in the world whining about Palestine is that it's all HUGELY hypocritical! Recent history: Turkey invaded the 90% Greek Christian island of Cyprus and still occupies 1/2 of the island to this day. Where is the Muslim outrage and demands for Turkey to cease their occupation? Treatment of Christians, Hindus and Buddhists by Muslims right now is very often far worse that the treatment of the Palestinians. Where is the Muslim outrage demanding better treatment for "people of the book"?

The Muslim world is whining about how horribly mistreated the Palestinians are, yet look at the horrible things they do to each other! Look at the horrible things they do to non-Muslims! The Muslim world has done far, far worse things to each other and to non-Muslims since 1948 than anything Israel even dreamed of doing. Where is the outrage?

The Muslims of the Middle East have no business crying about Israel unless and until they stop doing worse things themselves. Stop killing Christians. Stop putting women to death for being raped. Stop being such primitives.

Why not? The Jews are unique in that they weren't just massacred once by one conquering power. They were massacred over and over again by absolutely everyone. Muslims, Persians, Europeans, Romans, Africans, you name it. Giving them a homeland of their own makes a ton of sense because history has clearly demonstrated that they simply cannot trust other nations to treat them like human beings. The truly bizarre thing is that it has ALWAYS been that way.

There is tremendous and disproportionally strong bias against the nation of Israel! Yet that's the way it has always been throughout history, so it should come as no surprise. It's the same unexplainable hatred that has followed the Jews wherever they've gone.

First of all, I'm not really making much sense out of exactly what you're saying is "exaggerated" or otherwise inaccurate about the Jewish Holocaust. Are you saying that Germany had a shortage of poison gas, that the gas wasn't actually poisonous or that you could only kill one person at a time with it??

The Germans have always been very thorough just out of habit. The Holocaust was no exception. They carefully and thoroughly documented everything in great detail, thus inadvertantly making it the best documented genocide ever. The Nazis were looking for methods of killing massive numbers of Jews (and other undesirables) for minimal cost. Poison gas was just one of a long list of methods tried. Starvation took it's toll. Lining them up and firing a high powered rifle to kill as many as possible with one bullet was tried too. And sometimes a shower was just a shower, not a mass-gassing.

squall-lionheart your posts on this forum has quite thoroughly proven you to be hypocritical. You see the spreading of Islam by the sword, conquest of another religion's holy cities and the occupation of their lands as this wonderful thing! "Muhammed foretold this and this is just the beginning! We're going to conquer you all because it is the will of Allah! Praise Allah for giving us victory!" Yet when a tiny non-Muslim nation controls the tiniest scrap of Muslim-occupied lands it's the most horrible thing ever!

What I would suggest is that you step back from the Quran for a second, use your brain and think. Nobody wants to be conquered and ruled over by a theocratic regime based upon a religion they believe is false. The wars of conquest in early Islamic history were cruel, barbaric and unwelcome. The people didn't appreciate having their lands taken from them -- and few people have ever stolen more lands that were not rightfully their own than Islam. The peoples they conquered didn't appreciate centuries of occupation and constant pressure to convert - somemtimes "convert if you know what's best for you" and sometimes "convert or die." They didn't appreciate mass slaughters, rapes, tortures and crimes against them that were carried out with impunity, just because they were not Muslim. Israel is the tiniest of reversals where somebody took back something that Islam stole to begin with. Why is it so offensive when somebody else does back to Islam what they've done for countless centuries??? And why so much anger over such a tiny scrap of land???
Excellent post brimming with truth and knowledge of the scourge of Islam . . . the religion of the sword. The apologists' deceits have no power against such truth.
 
Old 06-04-2011, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Excellent post brimming with truth and knowledge of the scourge of Islam . . . the religion of the sword. The apologists' deceits have no power against such truth.
Does history show that the world's largest Muslin Nation (Indonesia) was forced into Islam?

No matter how hard one tries, a religion can not be spread by force and last for long. A religion can only grow because the people believe in it.

Although Islam has spread around the globe, the Arab people did not expand much beyond the Arabian Peninsula.

There is no hidden secret Islamic hierarchy that profits from the spread of Islam. we do not pay tithes, or send support money to Saudi or any place else. Virtually every Mosque has been built from the pocket of individual Muslims. We do not pay dues to any central Authority.
 
Old 06-05-2011, 03:10 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,036 posts, read 4,199,055 times
Reputation: 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Does history show that the world's largest Muslin Nation (Indonesia) was forced into Islam?

No matter how hard one tries, a religion can not be spread by force and last for long. A religion can only grow because the people believe in it.

Although Islam has spread around the globe, the Arab people did not expand much beyond the Arabian Peninsula.

There is no hidden secret Islamic hierarchy that profits from the spread of Islam. we do not pay tithes, or send support money to Saudi or any place else. Virtually every Mosque has been built from the pocket of individual Muslims. We do not pay dues to any central Authority.
My intended point was not to say that Islam is the root of all evil so I hope that it didn't come across as such. My point was that all the fuss about Palestine is massively hypocritical. If you have a long and proud history of conquering nations and setting up rule over the people there, then you can't very well complain when somebody does the same thing back to you without being a complete hypocrite. If you are bursting with that you're religion has conquered, desecrated and claimed for Islam the sacred sites of other religions, then you've got no business complaining when somebody takes your own sacred sites and does the same thing. If you live by the sword you die by the sword and the saying goes.

Woodrow LI I am not lumping you in with the Muslims who think like that. I don't think you do. I think you present a very well thought out perspective on things and I think you really do try to understand both points of view. And you're willing to question things when some Muslims out there try to do ridiculous things like insist that the Jewish Holocaust never happened or that only a tiny handful of Jews were actually killed. The response is directed at the extremely narrow and hypocritical lack of thinking I'm seeing on the part of squall-lionheart among others. If more Muslims were a bit more broad thinking like you seem to be, I think there would be real hope for peace between the three Judeo-Christian religions.
 
Old 06-05-2011, 05:08 AM
 
570 posts, read 636,494 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Excellent post brimming with truth and knowledge of the scourge of Islam . . . the religion of the sword. The apologists' deceits have no power against such truth.
Of course you would say that because you simply have the same opinion ...
 
Old 06-05-2011, 06:25 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,424,680 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by squall-lionheart View Post
Of course you would say that because you simply have the same opinion ...
It is the opinion of many and yes Islam was spread by the sword...
It is a fact that Islam is a violent religion, no matter how much Muslims want to call it the religion of peace. It is not that...

Terrorists usually have been Muslim and the terrorism has gotten far worse now..

There have been few exceptions.

Airplanes being hijacked.
The Israel Olympic team being killed.
Embassies being blown up.
Twin towers being destroyed by planes.
Suicide bombers.
busses being blown up.
business being bombed.

And this is just in my lifetime...

All these attacks were by Muslims.....

And all I can say is THANK G-D Osama is DEAD.....

Anyone who laments his death needs to have his head examined..

OH yeah hamas called him a holy warrior for Islam.....

Twisted, but again its a terrorist organization run by muslims...
 
Old 06-05-2011, 08:06 AM
 
570 posts, read 636,494 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder
The problem I have with all the Muslims in the world whining about Palestine is that it's all HUGELY hypocritical! Recent history: Turkey invaded the 90% Greek Christian island of Cyprus and still occupies 1/2 of the island to this day. Where is the Muslim outrage and demands for Turkey to cease their occupation?
The problem with you is that you dont know that Palestine(Jerusalem)contains Al-Aqsa Mosque, which is considered a sacred place for all Muslims
Quote:
Treatment of Christians, Hindus and Buddhists by Muslims right now is very often far worse that the treatment of the Palestinians. Where is the Muslim outrage demanding better treatment for "people of the book"?
could you be more specific please !!
Quote:
The Muslim world is whining about how horribly mistreated the Palestinians are, yet look at the horrible things they do to each other! Look at the horrible things they do to non-Muslims! The Muslim world has done far, far worse things to each other and to non-Muslims since 1948 than anything Israel even dreamed of doing. Where is the outrage?
Again ... could you be more specific please !!
give me an example ...
Quote:
The Muslims of the Middle East have no business crying about Israel
You mean about Palestine not Israel ... why would we cry about an occupation force !
Quote:
unless and until they stop doing worse things themselves. Stop killing Christians. Stop putting women to death for being raped. Stop being such primitives.
I thought I was talking to a reasonable person until I come across this ..
Small word can explain everything about your knowledge !!
Quote:
Stop putting women to death for being raped
I dont want to say that you are a lier lets just say that it was I huge fallacy ...
shame on you !!!
Quote:
Why not? The Jews are unique in that they weren't just massacred once by one conquering power. They were massacred over and over again by absolutely everyone. Muslims, Persians, Europeans, Romans, Africans, you name it.
If its true then we have to ask our self .... why ?
Eather there is a fatal flaw in them or history of the Jews must be rewritten from a neutral source .
You can not convince a reasonable person that the world hav been
conspiring throughout the ages against a particular race for no reason or .... it is a simple lie .
Quote:
Giving them a homeland of their own makes a ton of sense because history has clearly demonstrated that they simply cannot trust other nations to treat them like human beings. The truly bizarre thing is that it has ALWAYS been that way.
I hav no problem here if it was an impty land or a piece of Europe... what about the state of california ?!!
Americans love Jews ...I guarantee you that they would live in peace , At least temporarily
Quote:
There is tremendous and disproportionally strong bias against the nation of Israel! Yet that's the way it has always been throughout history, so it should come as no surprise. It's the same unexplainable hatred that has followed the Jews wherever they've gone.

I wonder Why ?
honestly ..!!!
Please I beg of ... enlighten me !!
Quote:
First of all, I'm not really making much sense out of exactly what you're saying is "exaggerated" or otherwise inaccurate about the Jewish Holocaust. Are you saying that Germany had a shortage of poison gas, that the gas wasn't actually poisonous or that you could only kill one person at a time with it??

The Germans have always been very thorough just out of habit. The Holocaust was no exception. They carefully and thoroughly documented everything in great detail, thus inadvertantly making it the best documented genocide ever. The Nazis were looking for methods of killing massive numbers of Jews (and other undesirables) for minimal cost. Poison gas was just one of a long list of methods tried. Starvation took it's toll. Lining them up and firing a high powered rifle to kill as many as possible with one bullet was tried too. And sometimes a shower was just a shower, not a mass-gassing.
That subject deserves a separate thread ...
I am working on it
Quote:
squall-lionheart your posts on this forum has quite thoroughly proven you to be hypocritical. You see the spreading of Islam by the sword, conquest of another religion's holy cities and the occupation of their lands as this wonderful thing! "Muhammed foretold this and this is just the beginning! We're going to conquer you all because it is the will of Allah! Praise Allah for giving us victory!" Yet when a tiny non-Muslim nation controls the tiniest scrap of Muslim-occupied lands it's the most horrible thing ever!

What I would suggest is that you step back from the Quran for a second, use your brain and think. Nobody wants to be conquered and ruled over by a theocratic regime based upon a religion they believe is false. The wars of conquest in early Islamic history were cruel, barbaric and unwelcome. The people didn't appreciate having their lands taken from them -- and few people have ever stolen more lands that were not rightfully their own than Islam. The peoples they conquered didn't appreciate centuries of occupation and constant pressure to convert - somemtimes "convert if you know what's best for you" and sometimes "convert or die." They didn't appreciate mass slaughters, rapes, tortures and crimes against them that were carried out with impunity, just because they were not Muslim. Israel is the tiniest of reversals where somebody took back something that Islam stole to begin with. Why is it so offensive when somebody else does back to Islam what they've done for countless centuries??? And why so much anger over such a tiny scrap of land???
At the end it is just your opinion which I see loaded with fallacies .
I will replay tomorrow on that particular point ...
 
Old 06-05-2011, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
My intended point was not to say that Islam is the root of all evil so I hope that it didn't come across as such. My point was that all the fuss about Palestine is massively hypocritical. If you have a long and proud history of conquering nations and setting up rule over the people there, then you can't very well complain when somebody does the same thing back to you without being a complete hypocrite. If you are bursting with that you're religion has conquered, desecrated and claimed for Islam the sacred sites of other religions, then you've got no business complaining when somebody takes your own sacred sites and does the same thing. If you live by the sword you die by the sword and the saying goes.
An area of difficulty for non-Muslims to understand is that there is no earthly central authority for Islam. To use an example look at the Western world virtually every Western Nation is Christian, and does operate to some extent under Christian ideology. Yet, they do not all obey the same world authorities.

We Muslims make the error of assuming that what any Western Nation does is an act of Christianity. The Western world makes the same error in failing to see that each Islamic Nation is a separate entity and assume that what is done by any Islamic Nation is an act of Islam.

The Western world sees any act of war between Islamic nations is an act of friction among Muslims. that is just as erroneous as if we were to say WW2 outside the Pacific theater was an act of friction in Christianity.

In Islam as I have stated in many posts, personal choice is a major factor. We are all free to make our own choices, but we each will face the consequences of our choices.

The wars and conquests of the past were most often the wars of Nations, not the wars of Islam.

"Conversion by the Sword" is one of the most spread and most believed misconceptions about us. It was more of a European concept used by the Early "Catholic" church in the conversion of the the Vikings and the Northern Crusades into the Baltics. The Knights Templar did a considerable amount of conversion in Lithuania, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, etc. The "Holy" Roman Empire with it's sojourns into the Islamic countries may have been one of the factors that spread Islam, as they were defeated, Islam spread. It was not an invasion by Muslims, it was defensive and fighting back the aggressors that tried to force Christianity upon Muslims that spread Islam.

I do admit that abuses were done, especially in regards to the sacred sites of other faiths. This is actually in violation of Islam as we are forbidden even in warfare to destroy the sacred sites of other faiths or to harm the religious leaders.

there is and has been a long on going exchange of ill feelings that goes back "tit for tat" in regards to the Grand Mosque of Cordoba in Spain (Now called "The Cathedral of Cordoba) and the Basilica Hagia Sophia in Turkey (converted to Ayasofya Mosque, but is now the Museum Hagia Sophia)







Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Woodrow LI I am not lumping you in with the Muslims who think like that. I don't think you do. I think you present a very well thought out perspective on things and I think you really do try to understand both points of view. And you're willing to question things when some Muslims out there try to do ridiculous things like insist that the Jewish Holocaust never happened or that only a tiny handful of Jews were actually killed. The response is directed at the extremely narrow and hypocritical lack of thinking I'm seeing on the part of squall-lionheart among others. If more Muslims were a bit more broad thinking like you seem to be, I think there would be real hope for peace between the three Judeo-Christian religions.
I do thank you for understanding I do try to see things from all perspectives. But, I do think very similar to my Brother squall-lionheart , we just have different ways of presenting our views. We both desire to defend Islam and remove the misconceptions. We are First Muslim, but we are also individual humans with our own opinions as to the best way to present the truth about Islam.

I do see the possibility for Peaceful coexistence among the 4 Judeo-Christian religions (Everybody keeps forgetting the Sabians). It will take dialogue, understanding and getting politics out of religion.
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