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I have just a small comment on this point. Observance of religious customs is not a good way to find out what someone believes. I have known Jews in America who are atheists and still observe some of the strict dietary and other laws of Judaism (American playwright Arthur Miller being one). My family is atheist and we put up a Christmas tree every year. And, many atheist Swedes attend church services as a community event.
If you what to know what people believe religiously, the best way is to ask them and not try to infer beliefs from their behaviors.
Asking them is necessarily shallow - I cant reduce my beliefs to yes or no to a Gallup poll. I believe that there is a force connecting all things in the universe, a force for good, that MAY have supernatural qualities, that MAY be said to love man. The range of things I think are possible range from the positions of Kaplan and Spinoza to a somewhat unorthodox supernaturalism. Technically you MIGHT call me an agnostic, but I dont think my relationship to religion is anything like that of people who call themselves agnostics. You can understand MUCH more about my religiosity by understanding that I pray in synagogue more than once a month, keep partial kashrut, aspire to observe kashrut and shabbot more strictly, but prefer an egalitarian form of Judaism, and accept gay commitment ceremonies as part of Judaism.
Maybe for Christians or Muslims asking someone "do you beleive in God" is enough. I dont think its profoundly misleading for Judaism.
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian."
-Golda Meir
Golda was denying Palestinian nationalism. She certainly acknowledged that there were arabs in Israel, and in the territories. By denying a SEPERATE palestinian identity, she reaffirmed her support for a territorial compromise based on Jordan taking control of parts of the West bank.
I dont care to make it my business to determine if the Arabs of the West bank are Palestinians, or jordanians, or arabs. We cant very well stop them from being palestinians. It IS worth noting that many of the issues of feasibility for a Palestinian state on the west bank would be MUCH simpler if any arab parts of the west bank were to be made part of Jordan. And that Palestinian nationalism as a distinct identity, well older than Zionists in Golda's time tended to say, is nonetheless basically a 20th century invention, that was far from uncontested as late as 1939.
As long as Muhammad is teaching hatred towards Jews and Christians, there will always be problems with the middle east.
I don't think so, as Muslims and Jews do get long pretty well living side by side in other parts of the world like New York and Canada, so I think they could do it there, too.
I think they get along in New York and Canada because both groups prosper and neither is oppressing or attacking the other. I really think a political solution could take care of it. If all prosper, people can and will avoid bombing each other.
There are prosperous individuals who attack for fame, recognition, power, and relevance, but one finds that in people of all religious backgrounds. They may use religion to justify their actions, but if it weren't for those other motivations they would not do it.
There have been attacks on both sides. In 1967 it was Israel that attacked first.Who attacked who is gone. The point most critics of Israel are making is that the war in which Israel took Arab lands is over...it's time to get out of Palestine. Regardless of who started what, Israel has no right being there. Would you think it acceptable if the USA/UK made Iraq part of the USA/UK? Do you really think that it's acceptable that a conquering nation has the right to hold onto the territory it conquers. It may have been acceptable thousands of years ago...but not today.
How is it that opponents of Israel get so much mileage out of "Israel has no right" but utterly fail to apply the concept universally??
Turkey has no right to occupy Constantinople and half of Cyprus but it does anyways. When it comes to Constantinople, it ends up being accepted as reality after all hope of Christians retaking it is lost and several centuries pass. As for Cyprus, Turkey invaded in 1973, and this amounts to a modern day land grab that Turkey had no right to do. It didn't stop them and it doesn't have them leaving. Where is the world-wide outrage against Turkey occupying half of Cyprus??
Tossing around who has a right to what gets nonsensical. The USA doesn't have a right to exist, Africaners of South Africa should do the right thing and pack up and head back to Europe, China has no right to occupy Tibet.
The list is endless. What happened is pretty simple. Rather than accepting a two-nation solution in 1947, the Palestinians called for help and the combined might of the surrounding Arab nations came crashing down on Israel The Arab forces lost and were driven back. To the victor goes the spoils, most especially when the victor was the one being attacked. The Palestinians have had a terrible go of it, but they've stuck to their guns and refused to accept the existence of the nation of Israel. The majority of them do not want a two state solution, they want it all. They already tried and failed to take it all but they refuse to admit that Israel isn't going to magically go away. Notions of accepting a two-nation solution is gaining momentum, but it's still highly unpopular among Palestinians. Until they accept it, they're pretty much doomed to continue to live on in exactly the same miserable circumstances.
Rafius, unless you're Native South African, you have no right to be in South Africa. Disagree? Well, that's exactly the position you're taking with Israel. I can see taking your point of view seriously when you lead the campaign to move all whites in South Africa back to Europe -- because they have no right to be there.
How so? The Israeli Jews didn't/don't WANT New York state - so why would that have appeased them?
Would the Palestinians be happy if we gave them NY state?
Most of the Jews did not want to go to the mideast. Many thought it was just going from one concentration camp to another.They felt they had no ties to the area. Most spoke Yiddish, Polish, Lithuanian, Russian, German, English or a combination of them.
Israel did not come about as the result of Jewish desire. It was the fulfillment of Zionism.
I suspect in 1947 most Jews would have preferred they had been given New York. At that time New York had the Largest Jewish population of any place else on Earth.
Also keep in mind all coins have 2 sides. Many people are looking at just one side. You seldom hear about the other side. Hate of any people is destructive.
Have you seen or read the "The King's Torah" by Yitzhak Shapira?
Interesting Book here is what a Christian group has to say about it:
Quote:
National Prayer Network
"THE COMPLETE GUIDE FOR KILLING GENTILES"
By Rev. Ted Pike
24 Jan 11
In November 2009, the world was stunned to learn of a shockingly popular book in Israel, The King’s Torah. It advocates murder of non-Jews and even their babies, claiming such infants would only grow up to become enemies of Israel. Ha’aretz says the book received “wide dissemination and the enthusiastic endorsement of prominent rabbis.” Some rabbinic authorities have condemned it, but many influential Orthodox leaders have chosen to remain noncommittal. (Ha’aretz, March 23, 2010, “The King’s Torah: A Rabbinic Text or a Call to Terror? (http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/news/the-king-s-torah-a-rabbinic-text-or-a-call-to-terror-1.261930 - broken link)”) They recognize that anti-Arab sentiment and sympathy, even with violent militancy against Palestinians, continues its dramatic upswing in Israel.
The book’s primary author, Yitzhak Shapira, was arrested in February 2010 for violating Israel’s law against incitement to religious hatred. However, he is reported not to fear imprisonment because of his influence and stature as a prominent head of the ultra-Orthodox settler movement. That confidence has been vindicated by lack of significant prosecution of Shapira for nearly a year.
Recently, a poll in Israel found a majority of Israelis approve the racist rights of Jewish property owners who refuse to sell or rent to Arabs. (See, Most Israelis Approve Racist Rabbis) Just as significantly, the government of Israel itself seems outwardly divided between bland expressions of tolerance by Prime Minister Netanyahu versus “inflammatory statements” and “unbridled incitement” of the ultra-Orthodox by Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman (Ha’aretz, January 12, 2011, “The Extreme Right’s Incitement Will End in Murder”).
The Arabs, Palestinians and Muslims are not the only guilty ones.
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