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Old 06-07-2011, 12:20 PM
 
2 posts, read 1,856 times
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Laws of Abrahamic religion softened a lot till advent of Islam. Under jewish talmudic law, the legal age is THREE years for the girl.

This is the Jewish Talmudic Law, which Jesus, who was born and died a jew, followed.

Jesus: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished (Matthew 5:17-18)"

Now, here is The Law!

MISHNAH. A GIRL OF THE AGE OF THREE YEARS AND ONE DAY MAY BE BETROTHED BY INTERCOURSE; IF THE YABAM HAD INTERCOURSE WITH HER, HE ACQUIRES HER THEREBY...

Babylonian Talmud: Niddah 44
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Old 06-07-2011, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,328,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I have no idea why anyone would want to follow what is the most vionlet religion in the world today, that is unless they love killing.

11,000,000 Muslims have been violently killed since 1948, of which 35,000, or 0.3 percent, died during the sixty years of fighting Israel, or just 1 out of every 315 Muslim fatalities. In contrast, over 90 percent of the 11 million who perished were killed by fellow Muslims
True. Countries do fight countries Even if they are of the same faith. How many Christians killed Christians in WW2. Or better yet the Civil war. Every Casualty was killed by not only a Christian but also a fellow American.

In 4 years of war there were 615,000 casualties at a time when the US population was only 31,000,000 One out of ever 50 Americans was a casualty.

The Casualties in WW2, virtually all from Christian nations fighting Christian nations, was over 61,000,000 in 5 years. Japan had 3,000,000 casualties that should be deducted from that total Leaving 58,000,000 Christian Casualties, nearly all by other Christians. WW1 which was only among Christian nations fighting Christian Nations had 38,000,000
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Old 06-07-2011, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 22,023,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
WW1 which was only among Christian nations fighting Christian Nations had 38,000,000
The Ottoman Empire (Turkey) was not a Christian nation. It fought on the side of Germany, Bulgaria, and Austria-Hungary (which also included Muslims).

Also, WW2 lasted longer than 5 years. It is usually dated from September 1939, when Germany attacked Poland, although there were at least four other wars in the 1930s leading up to it.
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Old 06-07-2011, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,924 posts, read 31,841,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
True. Countries do fight countries Even if they are of the same faith. How many Christians killed Christians in WW2. Or better yet the Civil war. Every Casualty was killed by not only a Christian but also a fellow American.

In 4 years of war there were 615,000 casualties at a time when the US population was only 31,000,000 One out of ever 50 Americans was a casualty.

The Casualties in WW2, virtually all from Christian nations fighting Christian nations, was over 61,000,000 in 5 years. Japan had 3,000,000 casualties that should be deducted from that total Leaving 58,000,000 Christian Casualties, nearly all by other Christians. WW1 which was only among Christian nations fighting Christian Nations had 38,000,000
Not at all the same at all...Muslims are killing each other over who has the better fairy tale. The second world war was expansionist and political and nothing to do with religion, other than Hitler's persecution of Jews, and that was mostly political as well.
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Old 06-07-2011, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,328,790 times
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Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Not at all the same at all...Muslims are killing each other over who has the better fairy tale. The second world war was expansionist and political and nothing to do with religion, other than Hitler's persecution of Jews, and that was mostly political as well.
The Shii/Sunni conflicts are political and not religious. Since the 1930s the difference between Shii and Sunni have been more than difference of opinion over worship menthods. In the 1920s came the Twelvers in Iran with the ideas of an Ayatoullah. the Ayatoullah is to the Shii what the Pope is to catholics. A very dangerous belief as as Muslims we are not to follow any Human leader. The shii of today want all Muslims to be obediant to the ayatoullah consider his fatwahs to be binding. In other words they want the Arab Nations to be Iranian States. No Sunni is going to submit to the ayatoullah. The shii are demanding loyalty to the ayatoullah, ie submission to Iran
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Old 06-07-2011, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,924 posts, read 31,841,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Shii/Sunni conflicts are political and not religious. Since the 1930s the difference between Shii and Sunni have been more than difference of opinion over worship menthods. In the 1920s came the Twelvers in Iran with the ideas of an Ayatoullah. the Ayatoullah is to the Shii what the Pope is to catholics. A very dangerous belief as as Muslims we are not to follow any Human leader. The shii of today want all Muslims to be obediant to the ayatoullah consider his fatwahs to be binding. In other words they want the Arab Nations to be Iranian States. No Sunni is going to submit to the ayatoullah. The shii are demanding loyalty to the ayatoullah, ie submission to Iran
As I said, It's all about who has the better myth.
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Old 06-07-2011, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,328,790 times
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Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
As I said, It's all about who has the better myth.
I guess that is about as far as we are going to get with this line of discussion. Perhaps it really is impossible to debate about religion and have all parties understand each other.

But one last try. Most of us sunni do accept the Shii as being Muslim (Personally I don't, but most sunni do) the differences and conflicts are over power. Iran wants to rule the Arabs. there has been conflict over this for centuries. sadly it is racial prejudice at the root. The Iranian seem to have a bit of a superiority complex over their Arab neighbors. Sadly racial prejudice does often cross religious barriers and some Iranians are quick to let it be known they are Aryans and not semitic.

the Shii twelfers want all Muslims under the Ayatoullah. The Sunni do not accept any central religious leader and have no ordained clergy. Any Muslim can be an Iman (even me) no special ordination or ceremony required. Just be either the oldest person at the Mosque or the one most capable of leading the prayers.

this is a political issue over if the Arab nations will be self governed or under Iran.
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Old 06-07-2011, 05:48 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,434,723 times
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[quote=Woodrow LI;19488668]

The Sunni do not accept any central religious leader and have no ordained clergy. Any Muslim can be an Iman (even me) no special ordination or ceremony required. Just be either the oldest person at the Mosque or the one most capable of leading the prayers.

And that is where the problem lies anyone whether they know what they are talking about can get up and spout a bunch of stuff and everyone sees him as an authority. They not only lead the prayers they give a Khutba / sermon too.

The extremists all spouting what they see as the true Islam and taking authority and muslims following them.

Having Imams who are actually educated is not a bad thing...

At least when I speak to my rabbi or any of the rabbis I know I know they have had years of Rabbinical education.

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Old 06-07-2011, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,924 posts, read 31,841,828 times
Reputation: 12664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I guess that is about as far as we are going to get with this line of discussion. Perhaps it really is impossible to debate about religion and have all parties understand each other.

But one last try. Most of us sunni do accept the Shii as being Muslim (Personally I don't, but most sunni do) the differences and conflicts are over power. Iran wants to rule the Arabs. there has been conflict over this for centuries. sadly it is racial prejudice at the root. The Iranian seem to have a bit of a superiority complex over their Arab neighbors. Sadly racial prejudice does often cross religious barriers and some Iranians are quick to let it be known they are Aryans and not semitic.

the Shii twelfers want all Muslims under the Ayatoullah. The Sunni do not accept any central religious leader and have no ordained clergy. Any Muslim can be an Iman (even me) no special ordination or ceremony required. Just be either the oldest person at the Mosque or the one most capable of leading the prayers.

this is a political issue over if the Arab nations will be self governed or under Iran.
That just confirms what I said....It boils done all of you thinking you are following the "true" religion...In Islam politics are inseparable from religion.
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Old 06-07-2011, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,328,790 times
Reputation: 7407
[quote=Jazzymom;19490356]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

The Sunni do not accept any central religious leader and have no ordained clergy. Any Muslim can be an Iman (even me) no special ordination or ceremony required. Just be either the oldest person at the Mosque or the one most capable of leading the prayers.

And that is where the problem lies anyone whether they know what they are talking about can get up and spout a bunch of stuff and everyone sees him as an authority. They not only lead the prayers they give a Khutba / sermon too.

The extremists all spouting what they see as the true Islam and taking authority and muslims following them.

Having Imams who are actually educated is not a bad thing...

At least when I speak to my rabbi or any of the rabbis I know I know they have had years of Rabbinical education.

True and that is a part of Judaism I respect. Our difference here is the Islamic importance of self responsibility. We are supposed to verify the credentials of every person who tells us anything and verify what they say. We do not have the option of saying anybody misled us. It is our responsibility to verify all things.

To help us in proper guidance from learned people, we should seek advice from people with recognized levels of education such as a Mufti or Mullah. An Iman is essentially not qualified to do anything except lead the prayers. If he does give a Khutba it should be related to local matters that everyone is aware of. There is also a trend to seek Imans that are Mullah. A Mullah is a person who has a minimum of a PhD in a recognized school of Islamic theology.

We do have various levels of scholars and we should consult recognized scholars, but we should also verify their areas of study, where they studied and and even then do our best in verifying what they say. Sadly in uneducated regions of the world people often become puppets to ruthless people who misuse religion as a tool for personal gain.

In the more developed regions of the world, the trend is for a Mosque to hire full time trained Imans. They are usually selected by a board of directors that represents the Mosque. Paid full time Imans just may be the way to solve the problem of unqualified Imans.

Another issue is that of Fatwahs We are not obligated to follow any Fatwah as that is only the opinion of a man. Anybody can issue a fatwah. We should never follow one unless we agree it is in compliance with what we find to be true.

But, like in all things we as individuals are responsible for verifying to the best of our ability all things we believe and we must never stop trying to learn more.

In areas of leaning we should use the following levels of credibility for those we select as our teachers/instructors. From least reliable to highest the order is usually, an elder, a person with more education, an Iman, a Scholar, A Mufti or Mullah (a Mufti is trained in Jurisprudence a Mullah is trained in theology) but we should never accept the opinion or word of just one person, we should seek advice from every person we have reason to believe is more knowledgeable than ourselves. And still do not accept it without verification from other sources.
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