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Old 06-27-2011, 07:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Please state a reference where we are commanded to lie to anybody?


TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Taqiyya and Lying

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

The Qur'an:
Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."

Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Qur'an (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"

Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit. If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.


2 examples of muhammad lying to gain advantage. There are more examples on the website I have listed above.

Though not called Taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later, and some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.

Another example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and again later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims.



http://ahollowreveille.com/?page_id=30

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles...mic-doctrines/

Last edited by Jazzymom; 06-27-2011 at 08:04 AM..
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Old 06-27-2011, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Taqiyya and Lying

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

The Qur'an:
Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."

Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Qur'an (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"

Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit. If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.


2 examples of muhammad lying to gain advantage. There are more examples on the website I have listed above.

Though not called Taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later, and some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.

Another example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and again later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims.



http://ahollowreveille.com/?page_id=30

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/persecution-by-islam/taqiya-and-jihad-–the-duality-of-islamic-doctrines/

Hate sites are notorious for taking things out of context. But even there, I see no evidence that Muslims are COMMANDED to lie. There are instances under which lying is not considered a grave sin and understandable, but if you read further in the Qur'an you will find that the Truth is always the preferred choice. None of those are encouragement to lie. But an understanding that under some conditions it will not condemn a man to hellfire.
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Old 06-27-2011, 11:58 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,424,680 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Hate sites are notorious for taking things out of context. But even there, I see no evidence that Muslims are COMMANDED to lie. There are instances under which lying is not considered a grave sin and understandable, but if you read further in the Qur'an you will find that the Truth is always the preferred choice. None of those are encouragement to lie. But an understanding that under some conditions it will not condemn a man to hellfire.

Well here is one Muslim who disagrees with you and this is not a hate site.

Peaceful preaching inside, violent message outside a New York mosque - CNN.com


This is the mindset that believes muslims are commanded. Converts living in my country spewing this kind of hate.
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Old 06-27-2011, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Well here is one Muslim who disagrees with you and this is not a hate site.

Peaceful preaching inside, violent message outside a New York mosque - CNN.com


This is the mindset that believes muslims are commanded. Converts living in my country spewing this kind of hate.
You did notice that the guy in the video, is not part of the Mosque and is protesting against the Mosque:

Quote:
New York (CNN) -- Outside a Manhattan mosque where the imam preaches against terrorism, the brothers of the "Revolution Muslim" are spreading a different message.
Protected by the Constitution of the country they detest, radical Muslim converts like Yousef al-Khattab and Younes Abdullah Mohammed preach that the killing of U.S. troops overseas is justified. In their thinking, so were the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States -- and so are attacks on almost any American.
"Americans will always be a target -- and a legitimate target -- until America changes its nature in the international arena," Mohammed said in an interview to air on tonight's "AC 360."
Al-Khattab and Mohammed consider al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden their model.
Those nut jobs are more anti-Islam than you are. You may also notice where it says "radical Muslim converts like Yousef al-Khattab and Younes Abdullah Mohammed" they were radicals and anti American, before they ever claimed to have accepted Islam. Do you actually consider them guys to be Muslim? guys like that are always attacking Muslims and at the same time claim to be following Islam.

Now just how does this verify your claim that Muslims are commanded to lie?

You may also want to see just whe the "Muslim Revolution" are. (The group those idiots outside the Mosque, belong to) They are not Muslim.

Quote:
The group of 5–10 devoted to Abdullah el-Faisal was run by Yousef al-Khattab (born Joseph Cohen), an American Jew who converted to Islam in 2000 after living in Israel and attending an orthodox rabbinical school there, then returned to New York,where he is said to have worked driving a taxi, operating a pedicab, or running a restaurant.In December, 2009, al-Khattab said he would be temporarily outside of the United States during a protest outside his home in Woodside, Queens planned by the Jewish Defense Organization, after al-Khattab expressed support for Nidal Malik Hasan, accused of the Fort Hood shooting. On December 12, 2009 al-Khattab posted a video on the group's website announcing that he had retired and that the group would be run by Abdullah as-Sayf Jones. However on April 2010 Abdullah as-Sayf Jones, now known as Abdullah Ali Zulfiqar, left the group after openly proclaiming that he had become a practitioner of Sufism and eventually embracing Shia Islam.Abdullah has since then embraced Judaism and changed his name to "David Scott Jones".
In addition to their website, the group distributes anti-Israeli literature outside of mosques. The mosque has called the police several times on the group, but has reported no actual violence. Legal and law enforcement officials in the US monitor the group, but describe its activities as protected by the First Amendment.The Anti-Defamation League has monitored the group since 2006.
In 2010, the founders of Revolution Muslim posted a statement from Anwar al-Awlaki, connected to various terrorists including the 9/11 hijackers, the Fort Hood shooter, and the Christmas Day 2009 bomber, on their blog that warned, "America cannot and will not win. The tables have turned and there is no rolling back of the worldwide Jihad movement."
Mia Bloom, political science professor at the Pennsylvania State University’s International Center for the Study of Terrorism, says Revolution Muslim may look amateurish when compared with other extremist websites, but is no less of a threat. “It may lead people who become radicalized by it to turn to other, more dangerous Web sites,” such as those run by terrorist organizations, she said. She characterized their message as “narrow” and “misinformed”.
Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, stated regarding the Revolution Muslim group, "[It is] an extreme fringe group that has absolutely no credibility within the Muslim community. In fact, most Muslims suspect they were set up only to make Muslims look bad. We just have very deep suspicions. They say such outrageous, irresponsible things that it almost seems like they're doing it to smear Islam."
SOURCE

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 06-27-2011 at 01:01 PM..
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Old 06-27-2011, 01:24 PM
 
40,043 posts, read 26,725,598 times
Reputation: 6048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I see no evidence that Muslims are COMMANDED to lie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Now just how does this verify your claim that Muslims are commanded to lie?
I assume you will address my references soon so you can see the evidence you do not see.
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Old 06-27-2011, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
616 posts, read 591,047 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Taqiyya and Lying

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

The Qur'an:
Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."

Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Qur'an (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"

Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit. If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.


2 examples of muhammad lying to gain advantage. There are more examples on the website I have listed above.

Though not called Taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later, and some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.

Another example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and again later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims.



http://ahollowreveille.com/?page_id=30

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles...mic-doctrines/


Like every time, you are bring the anti-Islam sites, either are by non-Muslims or apostates, no more.

Mainly, there is nothing in Islam calls for a lie ,there is nothing called "Taqiyya" so, is not allowed in Islam lies and deception to a non-Muslim

Page may help :


IslamiCity.com - Taqiyya: Do Muslims lie to spread Islam?
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Old 06-27-2011, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
616 posts, read 591,047 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I assume you will address my references soon so you can see the evidence you do not see.

excuse me , are you Christian?
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Old 06-27-2011, 01:58 PM
 
40,043 posts, read 26,725,598 times
Reputation: 6048
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The difference IS that it is NOT commanded by God in Christianity. It is specifically prohibited. BUT . . . It IS commanded by Allah in Islam! Just another of the false comparatives you use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Please state a reference where we are commanded to lie to anybody?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Jihad is war against the infidels as long as Israel exists and . . . "War is deceit."(Volume 4, Book 52, Number 267, 268, 269).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
I see no evidence that Muslims are COMMANDED to lie.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Now just how does this verify your claim that Muslims are commanded to lie?
I assume you will address my references soon so you can see the evidence you do not see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by weaam View Post
excuse me , are you Christian?
Feel free to answer for Woodrow if you wish. What I am is not relevant to the truth that Allah COMMANDS deception and lies to infidels in Dar al harb (which conveniently enough exists as long as Israel exists and there are other "occupiers" of Arab lands).
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
616 posts, read 591,047 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Well here is one Muslim who disagrees with you and this is not a hate site.

Peaceful preaching inside, violent message outside a New York mosque - CNN.com


This is the mindset that believes muslims are commanded. Converts living in my country spewing this kind of hate.


just Bring to us one or two people that do not represent Islam, then say this is Islam


I can find the same thing, Hate-filled Israeli rabbis incite violence against non-Jews


Hate-filled Israeli rabbis incite violence against non-Jews | Sabbah Report


even we know that People extremists are in all religions
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
616 posts, read 591,047 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Feel free to answer for Woodrow if you wish. What I am is not relevant to the truth that Allah COMMANDS deception and lies to infidels in Dar al harb (which conveniently enough exists as long as Israel exists and there are other "occupiers" of Arab lands).

ok, ok I will answer you but answer my question first,pleas
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