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Old 06-22-2011, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,888 posts, read 31,788,057 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I have never defended suicide bombers or other terrorists. I have said the were not living in accordance with Islam. they may wear the name of Muslim, but they are not following Islam.
Instead of condemning Muslims who blow themselves up to kill innocents you make excuses for them, or dredge up history and give examples of other religions or people involved in the same type of attacks, so that is exactly what you are doing..
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Old 06-22-2011, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Instead of condemning Muslims who blow themselves up to kill innocents you make excuses for them, or dredge up history and give examples of other religions or people involved in the same type of attacks, so that is exactly what you are doing..
My simple point being hate has no religion. It is found among all people.


In my sermons at my Mosque and every Imam I know totally refuses to accept any terrorist or suicide bomber as following Islam. They are to be shunned and not spoken of. We can not tolerate the actions of those like that.

The Qur'an and ahadith are very clear that suicide is a path to hellfire not paradise and that those who kill innocents and other non-combatants are also on the path to hellfire.

I am not the only one who preaches such as that, but each Imam can only reach those in His own Mosques. For some odd reason when an Imam says one thing evil, the Media knows about it and it is world wide news, but millions of us speak of peace and non aggression daily and our words are never heard. Even when we stage Parades and have protest marches condemning terrorism. it never even makes it to youtube
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Old 06-22-2011, 11:11 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,323,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In my sermons at my Mosque and every Imam I know totally refuses to accept any terrorist or suicide bomber as following Islam. They are to be shunned and not spoken of. We can not tolerate the actions of those like that.
What we don't see is you moderates out in force and vocal about it, you live in fear for your life because they put death threats on any one that speaks out against them.

Speaking out takes courage and until you lot clean up house from the inside, you will continue to be viewed as barbaric, uneducated, immoral, and archaic. You really cannot blame how the world stereotypes muslims.

Only when education and civilization is allowed to flourish in the backward muslim countries, will you be accepted as you want to be. The folk that carry out acts of violence against their own are never prosecuted, the punishment never fits the crime if they do, stuff like honor killings, throwing acid in girls faces etc.

Do not tell us this is tradition or cultural, it is simply barbaric and has no place in the modern world.
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Old 06-22-2011, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
What we don't see is you moderates out in force and vocal about it, you live in fear for your life because they put death threats on any one that speaks out against them.

Speaking out takes courage and until you lot clean up house from the inside, you will continue to be viewed as barbaric, uneducated, immoral, and archaic. You really cannot blame how the world stereotypes muslims.

Only when education and civilization is allowed to flourish in the backward muslim countries, will you be accepted as you want to be. The folk that carry out acts of violence against their own are never prosecuted, the punishment never fits the crime if they do, stuff like honor killings, throwing acid in girls faces etc.

Do not tell us this is tradition or cultural, it is simply barbaric and has no place in the modern world.
Do you realize how many Muslims daily protest against the terrorists. We have no central means of speaking to all Muslims. Most Imams can only speak to those in his own Mosque. I holler every bit I can, and I hardly reach anybody outside of North Dakotah. I am quite verbal and adamant in my anti-terrorism views. But I reach no more than perhaps 50 people. Each Imam faces the same limitations, the media is not interested in those of us who condemn the terrorists. We have no central finances, we get no money from anybody except our own pockets. Most of us can not afford to travel much beyond our own Mosque. On Occasion I have been asked to go speak at Mosques outside of North Dakota and wish I could afford to do so. But to be honest my personal income is quite low and I don't have the money to do so.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:16 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,888 posts, read 31,788,057 times
Reputation: 12630
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
My simple point being hate has no religion. It is found among all people.


In my sermons at my Mosque and every Imam I know totally refuses to accept any terrorist or suicide bomber as following Islam. They are to be shunned and not spoken of. We can not tolerate the actions of those like that.

The Qur'an and ahadith are very clear that suicide is a path to hellfire not paradise and that those who kill innocents and other non-combatants are also on the path to hellfire.

I am not the only one who preaches such as that, but each Imam can only reach those in His own Mosques. For some odd reason when an Imam says one thing evil, the Media knows about it and it is world wide news, but millions of us speak of peace and non aggression daily and our words are never heard. Even when we stage Parades and have protest marches condemning terrorism. it never even makes it to youtube
You do know that things don't magically appear on youtube...Anyone can set up a youtube account and post videos.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:19 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,323,385 times
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There is the internet, there are other methods, all I hear are excuses. Thus the problem will never go away. By cleaning house, the problem is in the ME and not the USA or SA where I live. You lot are moderate and westernized.

It will take an effort from all ME muslims to address this, the death threats will need to be overcome, there is power in numbers and if you are being held hostage by a fringe then you deserve to be ridiculed and hated by the west.

This is the problem with theocracies. You can only do something about it when you admit you have a problem, trying to find parallels in history does not sanction anything that is currently happening within Islam.

You cannot sugar coat a turd.
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Old 06-23-2011, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
There is the internet, there are other methods, all I hear are excuses. Thus the problem will never go away. By cleaning house, the problem is in the ME and not the USA or SA where I live. You lot are moderate and westernized.

It will take an effort from all ME muslims to address this, the death threats will need to be overcome, there is power in numbers and if you are being held hostage by a fringe then you deserve to be ridiculed and hated by the west.

This is the problem with theocracies. You can only do something about it when you admit you have a problem, trying to find parallels in history does not sanction anything that is currently happening within Islam.

You cannot sugar coat a turd.
Do you have any idea how many thousand youtube videos are up in which we are protesting Terror. Along with many hundreds of websites for Muslims in which we do protest against terrorism?

We are very active and very vocal in protesting against terrorism. Here are just a few of the you tube videos.









This next one actually show how most Muslims protest, We protest through example, by the way we live. Here is how the majority of us are



I can give you the links to thousands of youtube links to Muslims protesting against violence and terrorism they are difficult to find on youtube unless you know who posted them. It seems that the search engines on you tube do not recognize the combinations or any words that equate Muslims with peace or protesting against terrorism. But if you like I will send you links to as many as you want to see.

The ME muslims do protest, but sadly many live under corrupt governments or in war Zones. There protests while many seldom get any world attention, even on youtube

there are also very many anti terrorism websites by Muslims I wont advertise my own, but will give you some links to others:

Muslims against terrorism and extremism | Free Muslims Coalition

Muslims against Terrorism (http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm - broken link)

I can send you quite a few from the Mideast but most are in either Arabic, Farsi or Urdu. But if you like I can send you links to quite a few.
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Old 06-23-2011, 02:49 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,323,385 times
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I have a strong suspicion that many of the vids do not get seen due to censorship. That said, all this is good but there probably needs to be a coalition of effort and not just folk posting hoping that folk will see and be influenced.

You need to take the battle to where the problem lies, the ME. This needs a central authority. It is because this is lacking that the approach is probably a shotgun aimed at a target 500 feet away.

Education is key and removing illiteracy. That however will run the risk of folk leaving islam. If there are no more death threats and folk are free to choose, then what islam may become is a religion of choice instead of culture. However, the haidiths and Quran will need updating as killing those that dare to leave islam is sanctioned by both.

The stuff we see muslims doing to their own kind is far worse than what folk may fear from a muslim onslaught, there are no muslim forces that could match any Westernized army or be a threat for invasion, those glory days are passed.

Really, it is time to join the 21st century but until muslims worldwide become more moderate, instituting secular laws based on international laws, there is IMO very little hope moving forward.
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
I have a strong suspicion that many of the vids do not get seen due to censorship. That said, all this is good but there probably needs to be a coalition of effort and not just folk posting hoping that folk will see and be influenced.

You need to take the battle to where the problem lies, the ME. This needs a central authority. It is because this is lacking that the approach is probably a shotgun aimed at a target 500 feet away.

Education is key and removing illiteracy. That however will run the risk of folk leaving islam. If there are no more death threats and folk are free to choose, then what islam may become is a religion of choice instead of culture. However, the haidiths and Quran will need updating as killing those that dare to leave islam is sanctioned by both.

The stuff we see muslims doing to their own kind is far worse than what folk may fear from a muslim onslaught, there are no muslim forces that could match any Westernized army or be a threat for invasion, those glory days are passed.

Really, it is time to join the 21st century but until muslims worldwide become more moderate, instituting secular laws based on international laws, there is IMO very little hope moving forward.
Most of the Mideast is a war zone and anarchy is the current religion. Until the US gets out and the people can set up their own governments, the mideastern countries will mostly remain in anarchy or under puppet governments.

A Muslim is not to follow the words of any living person unless they have verified them, found them to be true and agree with them. Our only guides that we all follow are the Qur'an, Ahadith and Fiqh ul Sunnah. We can not have any ordained clergy or human leaders as we accept self responsibility. We can learn from each other, but we must always question the sources of what we learn from and always be certain that what we follow is true.

About a year ago there was a convention of 20,000+ Imams from throughout the Mideast. I believe the convention was held in India, the purpose was to exchange ideas on how each Mosque can help fight terrorism. Some of the agreed upon points was to improve the education of the young people.

Most of the Schools throughout the mideast do denounce suicide and terrorism. Both are forbidden in the Qur'an, Ahadith and Sunnah.

Most people if they actually understood Shariah law would favor it. It is pretty much an idyllic life with freedom from fear or abuse. But that is a moot point as True sharia can not be until after the Return of Jesus(s) and the reign of world peace is here.
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:27 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,428,603 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Most of the Mideast is a war zone and anarchy is the current religion. Until the US gets out and the people can set up their own governments, the mideastern countries will mostly remain in anarchy or under puppet governments.

A Muslim is not to follow the words of any living person unless they have verified them, found them to be true and agree with them. Our only guides that we all follow are the Qur'an, Ahadith and Fiqh ul Sunnah. We can not have any ordained clergy or human leaders as we accept self responsibility. We can learn from each other, but we must always question the sources of what we learn from and always be certain that what we follow is true.

About a year ago there was a convention of 20,000+ Imams from throughout the Mideast. I believe the convention was held in India, the purpose was to exchange ideas on how each Mosque can help fight terrorism. Some of the agreed upon points was to improve the education of the young people.

Most of the Schools throughout the mideast do denounce suicide and terrorism. Both are forbidden in the Qur'an, Ahadith and Sunnah.

Most people if they actually understood Shariah law would favor it. It is pretty much an idyllic life with freedom from fear or abuse. But that is a moot point as True sharia can not be until after the Return of Jesus(s) and the reign of world peace is here.
No, non muslims would never favor it. I and others would never live under a non democratic government. This is the scariest thing for me to hear an American speaking of the good of sharia law. This is why I broke my connection to the muslim community. Americans who become muslim change and in that change they move away from thinking freedom and democracy as being good to Islam and sharia being the best. Most converts go to the middle east to learn arabic and come back with even more Islamic ideas. It is very scary.

When people convert to Islam they become brainwashed....
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