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Old 06-23-2011, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
No, non muslims would never favor it. I and others would never live under a non democratic government. This is the scariest thing for me to hear an American speaking of the good of sharia law. This is why I broke my connection to the muslim community. Americans who become muslim change and in that change they move away from thinking freedom and democracy as being good to Islam and sharia being the best. Most converts go to the middle east to learn arabic and come back with even more Islamic ideas. It is very scary.

When people convert to Islam they become brainwashed....
Very few reverts go to the mideast to learn Arabic. Those who do are often disappointed as they usually learn a colloquial dialect which does not help much with reading the Qur'an. Also leaves them with nobody to talk to, as very few Muslims speak Arabic. It is far easier to learn proper Qur'anic Arabic in the USA then any place else I have been in. Unless a person is a native speaker of Arabic, in which case they only need to learn the Tajweed pronunciation, in which case studying in a country that speaks proper Arabic is a good choice. The Countries that speak the best and purest Arabic are Yemen, Egypt and Saudi in that order.

Oddly I lived throughout the mideast for a considerable number of years, and during that time had almost identical ideas about Islam as you have. It was not until years after returning to the States that I finally found the Beauty of Islam.I guess the USA brainwashed me into accepting Islam.

Although you say that most non-Muslims would not want a non-democratic government, the Christians are awaiting the Kingdom of Jesus(as) and I believe the Jews are waiting for the return of the Messiah and be under his rule. Neither of which will be a Democracy.

But it is a moot point as I have stated before. Under Sharia law, there can not be full Shariah law until after the Return of Jesus(as) and the birth of the Mehdi. The closest we can have to shariah is the implementation of partial shariah in things like civil laws, similar to how Jews can be heard in a Mosaic court here in the USA, I assume you are in favor of Mosaic law for Jews, which is recognized in every USA State. Odd nobody complains about Jews being permitted to be heard in a Mosaic Court, but if a Muslim wants to be tried in a Shariah court everybody gets upset.
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Old 06-23-2011, 04:03 PM
 
Location: part of the Matrix--for now!
1,030 posts, read 1,178,281 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
There is the internet, there are other methods, all I hear are excuses. Thus the problem will never go away. By cleaning house, the problem is in the ME and not the USA or SA where I live. You lot are moderate and westernized.

It will take an effort from all ME muslims to address this, the death threats will need to be overcome, there is power in numbers and if you are being held hostage by a fringe then you deserve to be ridiculed and hated by the west.

This is the problem with theocracies. You can only do something about it when you admit you have a problem, trying to find parallels in history does not sanction anything that is currently happening within Islam.

You cannot sugar coat a turd.

ZZZZzzzzzzzz..how completely and utterly boring!

It's weird that people focus upon the small amount of violence produced by muslim radicals and completely ignore the extremely high amount of violence caused by the US. The US has invaded two muslim countries and is presently bombing 4 others: Yemen, Libya, Somalia and Pakistan at will. The US is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of muslims and the displacement of 1 million plus more. The US military is perhaps the most violent, rapacious and bloodthirsty perpectuators of violence the world has ever seen. To focus on the violence of a handfull of extremist and ignore violence of aggression of the US is sheer madness.
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Old 06-23-2011, 04:07 PM
 
Location: part of the Matrix--for now!
1,030 posts, read 1,178,281 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Instead of condemning Muslims who blow themselves up to kill innocents you make excuses for them, or dredge up history and give examples of other religions or people involved in the same type of attacks, so that is exactly what you are doing..
Muslims blowing themselves up and killing innocents is bad, but predator drones, fighter squadrons, attack helicopters, daisy cutter bombs, white phosperous, assault rifles, tanks and the use of special forces against innocent populations is worse.
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Old 06-23-2011, 04:19 PM
 
Location: part of the Matrix--for now!
1,030 posts, read 1,178,281 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
What we don't see is you moderates out in force and vocal about it, you live in fear for your life because they put death threats on any one that speaks out against them.

Moderate muslims condemn acts of violence done in the name of Islam all the time. The fact is that you're not listening, because more than likely you're not interested.

And yes it's true that many moderate Muslims in parts of the "muslim world" live in fear of radicals, why? Because the radicals have the backing of the western governments. The Taliban is a creation of the CIA, al-qaeda is a creation of the CIA, the Saudi royal family is protected by the US government and therefore by extension by the US military.

The agenda of the vast majority of muslims isn't defined by the Saudis, the Taliban or al-qaeda, the vast majority of us don't like them, but western governments sure do.
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Old 06-23-2011, 04:21 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,429,125 times
Reputation: 807
[quote=Woodrow LI;19722982]Very few reverts go to the mideast to learn Arabic. Those who do are often disappointed as they usually learn a colloquial dialect which does not help much with reading the Qur'an. Also leaves them with nobody to talk to, as very few Muslims speak Arabic. It is far easier to learn proper Qur'anic Arabic in the USA then any place else I have been in. Unless a person is a native speaker of Arabic, in which case they only need to learn the Tajweed pronunciation, in which case studying in a country that speaks proper Arabic is a good choice. The Countries that speak the best and purest Arabic are Yemen, Egypt and Saudi in that order.

Almost every male revert I knew is in the middle east now. So please don't proceed to say what you know about muslims where you are is what it is for others. They went to learn arabic and to live first hand the culture.


Oddly I lived throughout the mideast for a considerable number of years, and during that time had almost identical ideas about Islam as you have. It was not until years after returning to the States that I finally found the Beauty of Islam.I guess the USA brainwashed me into accepting Islam.

I used to think Islam was peaceful, but now I know that Muslims will never live in democracies because as you said sharia law is wonderful and if non muslims just understood we would see its beauty too.

Although you say that most non-Muslims would not want a non-democratic government, the Christians are awaiting the Kingdom of Jesus(as) and I believe the Jews are waiting for the return of the Messiah and be under his rule. Neither of which will be a Democracy.

You would be mistaken. Not all Jews await the moshiach. Again there are different movements in Judaism and they different. Even if they believe that, I would much rather live under Jewish or Christian rule then Muslim rule. I don't see the violence in Judaism or Christianity that I see in Islam. But I will always fight to live in a democracy with the separation of church and state. Personally I don't believe anyone is going to be under the Moshiachs rule, I think some day there will be a world where we all get along and the world will be at peace. I don't envision everyone becoming Jewish. You see Christianity and Judaism have evolved to a state where we I suppose can agree to disagree and go on our ways.

But it is a moot point as I have stated before. Under Sharia law, there can not be full Shariah law until after the Return of Jesus(as) and the birth of the Mehdi. The closest we can have to shariah is the implementation of partial shariah in things like civil laws, similar to how Jews can be heard in a Mosaic court here in the USA, I assume you are in favor of Mosaic law for Jews, which is recognized in every USA State. Odd nobody complains about Jews being permitted to be heard in a Mosaic Court, but if a Muslim wants to be tried in a Shariah court everybody gets upset.

You don't know much about Judaism do you. No, I don't see all Jews or anyone else living under mosaic law.

Most Jews I know are not very observant. There are secular and religious Jews.

I would be as against the institution of mosaic law as I am for sharia law.

You see I really believe Christians and Jews have just moved beyond much of this.

People get upset over sharia because of its violence towards women.

When women start getting stoned under mosaic law then we can revisit this.

I am sure some of the haredi communities have beit dins that make decisions for its community.

But for the most Jews we just are not to interested in living under mosaic law.

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Old 06-23-2011, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
616 posts, read 591,794 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nietzschean Gangsta View Post
Muslims blowing themselves up and killing innocents is bad, but predator drones, fighter squadrons, attack helicopters, daisy cutter bombs, white phosperous, assault rifles, tanks and the use of special forces against innocent populations is worse.


Quote:

fighter squadrons, attack helicopters, daisy cutter bombs, white phosperous, assault rifles, tanks and the use of special forces against innocent populations is worse

this is what America has done to innocent people in Afghanistan and Iraq and its support for Israel
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,355,258 times
Reputation: 2613
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nietzschean Gangsta View Post
ZZZZzzzzzzzz..how completely and utterly boring!

It's weird that people focus upon the small amount of violence produced by muslim radicals and completely ignore the extremely high amount of violence caused by the US. The US has invaded two muslim countries and is presently bombing 4 others: Yemen, Libya, Somalia and Pakistan at will. The US is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of muslims and the displacement of 1 million plus more. The US military is perhaps the most violent, rapacious and bloodthirsty perpectuators of violence the world has ever seen. To focus on the violence of a handfull of extremist and ignore violence of aggression of the US is sheer madness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nietzschean Gangsta View Post
Moderate muslims condemn acts of violence done in the name of Islam all the time. The fact is that you're not listening, because more than likely you're not interested.

And yes it's true that many moderate Muslims in parts of the "muslim world" live in fear of radicals, why? Because the radicals have the backing of the western governments. The Taliban is a creation of the CIA, al-qaeda is a creation of the CIA, the Saudi royal family is protected by the US government and therefore by extension by the US military.

The agenda of the vast majority of muslims isn't defined by the Saudis, the Taliban or al-qaeda, the vast majority of us don't like them, but western governments sure do.
Can't argue with any of that.
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:35 PM
 
40,117 posts, read 26,779,715 times
Reputation: 6051
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
No, non muslims would never favor it. I and others would never live under a non democratic government. This is the scariest thing for me to hear an American speaking of the good of sharia law. This is why I broke my connection to the muslim community. Americans who become muslim change and in that change they move away from thinking freedom and democracy as being good to Islam and sharia being the best. Most converts go to the middle east to learn arabic and come back with even more Islamic ideas. It is very scary.
When people convert to Islam they become brainwashed....
It takes a specific kind of mindset to accept the anachronistic and cultural barbarity of Islam, Jazzy. Unfortunately, it is widespread throughout the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
I have a strong suspicion that many of the vids do not get seen due to censorship. That said, all this is good but there probably needs to be a coalition of effort and not just folk posting hoping that folk will see and be influenced.

You need to take the battle to where the problem lies, the ME. This needs a central authority. It is because this is lacking that the approach is probably a shotgun aimed at a target 500 feet away.

Education is key and removing illiteracy. That however will run the risk of folk leaving islam. If there are no more death threats and folk are free to choose, then what islam may become is a religion of choice instead of culture. However, the haidiths and Quran will need updating as killing those that dare to leave islam is sanctioned by both.

The stuff we see muslims doing to their own kind is far worse than what folk may fear from a muslim onslaught, there are no muslim forces that could match any Westernized army or be a threat for invasion, those glory days are passed.

Really, it is time to join the 21st century but until muslims worldwide become more moderate, instituting secular laws based on international laws, there is IMO very little hope moving forward.
Education has largely failed in most of the world populations. It is particularly corrupt in Musilm dominated societies, The retention of ancient cultural ignorance and barbarity is a huge barrier to achieving civilized behavior and acceptance of secular rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
There is the internet, there are other methods, all I hear are excuses. Thus the problem will never go away. By cleaning house, the problem is in the ME and not the USA or SA where I live. You lot are moderate and westernized.

It will take an effort from all ME muslims to address this, the death threats will need to be overcome, there is power in numbers and if you are being held hostage by a fringe then you deserve to be ridiculed and hated by the west.

This is the problem with theocracies. You can only do something about it when you admit you have a problem, trying to find parallels in history does not sanction anything that is currently happening within Islam.

You cannot sugar coat a turd.
The following post is a case in point, Seeker. Equating wartime actions with terrorist actions is just one of the many deceptions and excuses trotted out to "coat that turd!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nietzschean Gangsta View Post
Muslims blowing themselves up and killing innocents is bad, but predator drones, fighter squadrons, attack helicopters, daisy cutter bombs, white phosperous, assault rifles, tanks and the use of special forces against innocent populations is worse.
QED!
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,355,258 times
Reputation: 2613
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post

When people convert to Islam they become brainwashed....
Aaaagh!!!! Moderator cut: edit Sorry This is just a pet peeve of mine. The word is INDOCTRINATED. I know there isn't a lot of difference between the two but there is one important difference.

If you are taught something and consent willingly to what you are being taught it is 'Indoctrination'. So someone that, say, willingly leaves Christianity and becomes a Muslim would be indoctrinated into the faith of Islam...or visa-versa

'Brainwashing' on the other hand is more of a forced indoctrination and usually involves employing a variety of psychological techniques that most people would consider rather extreme to the end of ensuring that people come to embrace a particular doctrine, or whatever, as being true beyond all doubt.

Sorry.

Last edited by june 7th; 06-24-2011 at 06:22 AM..
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:54 PM
 
Location: part of the Matrix--for now!
1,030 posts, read 1,178,281 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The following post is a case in point, Seeker. Equating wartime actions with terrorist actions is just one of the many deceptions and excuses trotted out to "coat that turd!"
Hey MysticPhD, I challenge you to defend this statement. I bet that you can't.
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