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Old 06-30-2011, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407

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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
I didn't say he didn't have a right to be here. He is gullible, and these people thrive on the unwary. I am trying to save him. Islam is nothing to play with, it's a deadly game. It's like listening to gang members talk about how they are family, brotherly love, take care of eachother bs, when the reality is, they steal your future and your soul.
Ptsum is in full control of his choices and while I disagree with his choices I do have high admiration for his strong stand for what he believes. I can not envision anyone of having the capability to cause him to accept anything he himself has not proven.

Oh I see you are much superior to those poor innocent naive people I am trying to corrupt. I assume you have more wisdom and knowledge than them to be able to tread among us who are out to steal your soul.

To be honest I am often quite unIslamic about some things, unlike most Muslims, I really do not care what happens to your soul. That is between you and God(swt). My responsibility ends by letting you know I am Muslim and willing to answer any questions. but, I am not even going to walk 2 feet to try to bring you to Islam. You alone are responsible for your own choices and Frankly I don't give a toot about what you choose.
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,852,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Ptsum is in full control of his choices and while I disagree with his choices I do have high admiration for his strong stand for what he believes. I can not envision anyone of having the capability to cause him to accept anything he himself has not proven.

Oh I see you are much superior to those poor innocent naive people I am trying to corrupt. I assume you have more wisdom and knowledge than them to be able to tread among us who are out to steal your soul.

To be honest I am often quite unIslamic about some things, unlike most Muslims, I really do not care what happens to your soul. That is between you and God(swt). My responsibility ends by letting you know I am Muslim and willing to answer any questions. but, I am not even going to walk 2 feet to try to bring you to Islam. You alone are responsible for your own choices and Frankly I don't give a toot about what you choose.
Now I'm warming up to you, I think that was an honest response. I do believe honesty is the best policy.
If you are here to answer questions, how come you keep ignoring mine?
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Now I'm warming up to you, I think that was an honest response. I do believe honesty is the best policy.
If you are here to answer questions, how come you keep ignoring mine?
For that I apologise. But, so far I have not seen where you have asked any questions about Islam. I will now look back through the thread and see if I can find them.
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
oh good grief, let's all sing kumbaya and play ring around the rosy.

Woodrow, are you familiar with Robert Spencer? He is one of the leading experts on Islam, he had a fascination with it. He lectures and has written numerous books on the subject.
to be honest I have not heard of him. Is he a recent writer? I stopped reading books about 3 years ago when My eyes starting going and since then only read what I can find online as I can see the PC screen adequately to read.
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:02 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,852,788 times
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I wish to contribute these statements to your thread. I am in the process of studying your ideology. I do believe it must be confronted and resisted. I know I have been a pest, and I will take my leave for now, leaving those looking in on this discussion with some questions posed to Robert Spencer.
I suggest, those that wish to learn more, visit his site and/or start reading his books.
About Robert Spencer - Jihad Watch

Q: Are you deliberately ignoring more liberal schools of thought in Islam?
RS: Certainly not. Any Muslim individual or group who works for genuine reform of the Islamic doctrines, theological tenets and laws that Islamic jihadists use to justify violence, is to be commended. But this reform must be undertaken honestly and thoroughly, confronting the texts of the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira that are used to justify violence against unbelievers, and decisively rejecting Qur'anic literalism. Not all self-proclaimed moderates are truly moderate: many deny that these elements of Islam exist at all -- hardly a promising platform for reform. It is important to make proper distinctions and speak honestly about the roots of the terrorist threat.


Q: Can you recommend a good English translation of the Qur'an?
RS: N. J. Dawood's is the most readable in English. However, most versions do not mark the verse numbers precisely. Some non-Muslims don't like it because he uses "God" for Allah, although since Arabic-speaking Christians use "Allah" for the God of the Bible, and have for over a millennium, this is a problem for poseurs and pseudo-scholars but is not really a serious objection to anyone who knows both languages. Also, many Muslims dislike this translation because Dawood was not a Muslim, and doesn't sugarcoat any of the passages. Two translations by Muslims, those by Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, are generally reliable, although both write in a stilted, practically unreadable pseudo-King James Bible English. Of the two, Ali's contains more liberties with the text -- such as adding "(lightly)" to Sura 4:34 after the directive to husbands to beat their disobedient wives. The Arabic doesn't say to beat them lightly, it just says to beat them. Pickthall's is generally accurate.


There are other good translations. For years I have liked Arberry's for its audacious literalism and often poetic English. Compare, for example, 81:15-18:
فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِالْخُنَّسِ الْجَوَارِ الْكُنَّسِ وَاللَّيْلِ إِذَا عَسْعَسَ وَالصُّبْحِ إِذَا تَنَفَّسَ
...in Pickthall and Arberry: Pickthall: "Oh, but I call to witness the planets, the stars which rise and set, and the close of night, and the breath of morning..." Arberry: "No! I swear by the slinkers, the runners, the sinkers, by the night swarming, by the dawn sighing..." Shades of the Symbolists. Arberry gives a hint of how the book sounds in Arabic, in which it is full of beguiling rhymes and rhythms.




Q: What can we do about this threat?
RS: Many things, but what we must do above all is remain true to our principles of freedom and equality of rights and dignity for all. These ideas and related ones are what set us apart from global jihadists. If we discard them in order to fight the jihadists, we risk erasing the distinction between the two camps.

Q: What is Jihad Watch?
RS: Jihad Watch is an attempt to raise awareness about the activities of the global jihadists. We are a 501c3 organization affiliated with the David Horowitz Freedom Center.


Q: Why are you doing this?
RS: The doctrines of jihad and Islamic supremacism threaten the peace and human rights of all free people. If it is not confronted and resisted, it will prevail.
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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I just found a biography about him online. Quite interesting I must say. It seems he and I went on diferrent roads, he went from Islam to Catholocism, I went from Catolocism to Islam. So far what I don't like is his choice of sources.

Quote:
Q: Why should I believe what you say about Islam?
RS: Pick up any of my books, and you will see that they are made up largely of quotations from Islamic jihadists and the traditional Islamic sources to which they appeal to justify violence and terrorism. My work sheds light on what these sources say.
To accept the words of a Jihadist as the message of Islam is like accepting the words of a KKK clansman as being the message of Christianity.
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Old 07-01-2011, 01:26 AM
 
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
154 posts, read 187,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
oh good grief, let's all sing kumbaya and play ring around the rosy.

Woodrow, are you familiar with Robert Spencer? He is one of the leading experts on Islam, he had a fascination with it. He lectures and has written numerous books on the subject.
I'm quite familiar with Robert Spencer. He's a sensationalist, a scam artist, an opportunist, and has been exploiting peoples irrational emotions via the written word. Instead of bridging the gap, Mr. Spencer focuses the lot of his time widening it so far from edge to edge that at times its almost hard to conceive. He has an agenda, as do his associates - therein his claim to "expertise" in my opinion at least is like a snowflake in a tar pit.
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Old 07-01-2011, 06:55 AM
 
Location: PA
563 posts, read 801,406 times
Reputation: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I would also add that while Ptsum and I disagree about religion, I do appreciate and respect his input. I see him as a very valued contributor to many threads.

For that matter as much and as often as I disagree with You, Jazzymom, I strongly believe you have a right to post what you believe, where ever you feel it applies. I might want to push you off the side of the computer, but I respect your right to post here and would never want anyone to even think you have no right to be here.
I second this.

And the thread name should be changed to; "Islam for Mu...oh look...shiny..."

Last edited by WonderingWanderer; 07-01-2011 at 07:46 AM..
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Old 07-01-2011, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
10,513 posts, read 10,337,863 times
Reputation: 6870
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
I didn't say he didn't have a right to be here. He is gullible, and these people thrive on the unwary. I am trying to save him. Islam is nothing to play with, it's a deadly game. It's like listening to gang members talk about how they are family, brotherly love, take care of eachother bs, when the reality is, they steal your future and your soul.
claudhopper, I appreciate your concern but I can assure you I am not gullible nor am I naive to know that both Islam and Christianity try to convert others to their belief. My spiritual belief is very strong and will not be swayed by others. I will tell you that I am Keetoowah, which means I am a keeper of the ancient ways of my people but at the same time our spiritual worship includes all acts of learning traditional ways, everything involved in achieving the correct position in relation to one's own path. I also believe that it is prudent upon me to learn about others religions and beliefs so that I have a knowledgeable insight as to what it is, knowledge is everything and that is why I ask the questions, to gain knowledge.osay
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Old 07-01-2011, 08:35 AM
 
3 posts, read 3,003 times
Reputation: 11
اشكرك جدا على طرح مثل هذا الموضوع

في امل ان يستفيد الكثيرون منه
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