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Old 06-26-2011, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
I don't think true Islamic teaching or madrassas will bring peace.
I think allowing for a secular education that allows for diversity in thought and religion is the answer.

Religion and education don't mix. My children go to school with children of all faiths even muslims.

Children need to learn about differences and acceptance.

I was looking some of what Native Americans believe:

Native American beliefs are deeply rooted in their culuture.
EVERYTHING is sacred from the largest mountain to the smallest plant and animal.
A lesson can be found in all things and experiences and everything has a purpose.
To sum up Native Spirituality; it is about HONOR, LOVE, and RESPECT.
Not only do we love, honor, and respect our Creator and our Mother Earth, but also every living thing.
It is about being in touch with ourselves and everything around us.
It is about knowing and understanding that we are part of everything, and everything is a part of us.
We are all One.
We also believe that our Elders hold the answers.
Our Elders keep our culture alive.
We have much to learn from our Elders, and they deserve and receive our utmost respect.

Ptsum if I have it wrong please tell me....



Jazzymom, I can add very little to what you have said here. I do believe that this is something that if you have not lived it,you would never fully understand it and that is the mistake that the European and Middle Eastern cultures have made in the past. The culuture and beliefs of the Native American are among the oldest in this world and because of individuals like myself it will continue to be taught and to survive.osay
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Old 06-26-2011, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
616 posts, read 592,071 times
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[quote=Jazzymom;19758370][quote=weaam;19758235]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post


Quran and killing the non muslim:

Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176: Narrated by 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.'" Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177: Narrated by Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Qur'an 2:191: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Qur'an 4:089: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Qur'an 9:005: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.



Islam Watch - "An Introduction to Real Islam" by Shabana Muhammad (http://www.islam-watch.org/Shabana/RealIslam/Chapter6.htm - broken link)


The text of the Koran is undeniable. How can you be Muslim and still support our Constitution?
Now, let us have a closer look at what the Koran says about the infidels:-

Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)
When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)
Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)
The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)
Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)
The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)
Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies
(22:19)
Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)
The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)
Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)
Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an (8:12)
Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60)


yeah, give me a links of sites By anti-Muslim apostates I can bring you dozens of sites that are the anti-Jewish and Christian say such that

Silly idea, Pick of the sites that correspond with your hated Close your eyes for anything no Increase your hatred


Now I can quote from the Bible, and your Torah like them but the worst of them


Misunderstanding :

all these verses are to defending not to attack or assault, did not you always repeat Israel is defending itself? these verses are the same thing give the right to defend ourselves


Misconception: Islam and The Quran promotes fighting, war and terrorism



YUSUF ALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.


The non-Muslim quotes this verse and argues that the verse teaches terrorism, and that the verse commands Muslims to slay the unbelievers wherever we catch them. However so does the passage actually preach terrorism? Or is that the non-Muslim is quoting this passage out of its proper context? Well the answer is that the verse is being quoted out of context, which is very sad because it is blatant mis-interpretation and blatant lying because it is not difficult to quote this passage in context, here is the context of this passage:


002:190
YUSUF ALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.


002:191
YUSUF ALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

002:192
YUSUF ALI: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful


002:193
YUSUF ALI: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.


So here is the passage being quoted in context, and as you can see when the verse is quoted in context one will notice there is no terrorism or genocide being preached or advocated! The context is if MUSLIMS GET ATTACKED then Muslims have the right to attack back, and the context is very clear on that, the theme comes into play on verse 190, not verse 191 which non-Muslims quote alone, the non-Muslim should quote from verse 190 onwards, and once doing so one will see that this is a defensive war, not an offensive one, if people attack the Muslims then the Muslims have the right to attack back, and that is exactly what the verses are saying.


The verses even say that if the people who started the fight begin to stop and make peace than we too must also stop and make peace as well, far from terrorism.


So it is that simple, verse 191 does not advocate terrorism or genocide, it advocates self-defense as can be seen from it context starting from verse 190 which states that if Muslims are attacked then we can attack back, and the context goes on to say that if the enemies stop attacking and make peace then we too should make peace, very simply and easy!



YUSUF ALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.


The non-Muslims quote this and start claiming terrorism and murder. However so is that the case? Or is the same case as always, that the non-Muslim is simply being dis-honest with themselves, and their fellow people. Well you make that choice after the explanation is given.

Let us analyse this verse to see if it does truly preach terrorism or not. Obviously the part that non-Muslims use the most with this verse is when it reads
[
Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks;

The verse is referring to battle, and war, that in a battle, when we meet the unbelieving army that we should aim for the neck. Is that terrorism, is that barbaric? Off course not, this is very logical, and this is the harsh reality of wars and battles, people get killed, and people go into a battle and war with the intention of killing their enemy. It is like if an army gives you instructions on how to attack your enemy during combat, would that be classified as terrorism? Off course it wouldn't, so why is it classed as terrorism or barbarity when the Quran gives Muslims instructions on how they should fight during a battle with an enemy?

So therefore there is nothing wrong with this part of the verse, it does not preach terrorism, or barbarity, not even close!


The second part of the verse that the non-Muslim has a problem with is when it reads:

bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom

What exactly is wrong with this command? Logically after a battle there is a winner and a loser, and obviously after a battle several enemy combatants will come into the hands of the opposition, and logically they will be taken in as prisoners and held for ransom. Is this cruel? Is this barbarity? Not even close, this is the simply the harsh reality of war, in war and battle you risk death, and you risk capture, this is the reality of such events. Secondly, notice that the verse even says the prisoners can be released out of generosity! Basically a ransom is not the only means of freedom, a Muslim has two options, either let the person go out of your own generosity, or if you want, you can get a ransom out of the prisoner.
So in conclusion this verse preaches no terrorism, it preaches no barbarity, all it gives are commands for the Muslims on how they should fight their enemy during battle, and what they should do with any prisoners they have.


all source :

http://www.discoveringislam.org/killing_infidels.htm
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Old 06-26-2011, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
weaam, come to my world and you will see something entirely different. I'm sure Woodrow LI will attest to that. You see in this country we have many different religions and beliefs and all live together under a democracy and it is the democracy that takes precedence over any religion or belief. Our system of government is completely separate from all religions and beliefs and it is designed that way on purpose and that is why all religions and beliefs can coexist in this country, not so in the Middle East. This is not meant to be argumentative or disrespectful, it is stated as a fact and nothing more.

yes, you are right, but I meant the Western media, Which gives a bad image to Islam and Muslims and portrays them as terrorists
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Old 06-26-2011, 09:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Which is all fine if you live in a mixed culture. I do agree an Islamic State would not be acceptable for many non-Muslims especially if they enjoy alcohol, Music, the mixing of Genders, etc. However, keep in mind most Muslims would prefer to live in an Islamic state if one existed. But, none do exist.

Muslims have been in the Americas for over 400 years and have lived in peace with their non-Muslim neighbors. In the early history of the USA they did make a fairly large percentage of the USA. But, most had a true Islamic education and followed their De'en, which is peaceful.

Now to return to the original topic, which is to share Islamic education with Muslims.

The Pillars of faith were mentioned above, we also have the fundamentals of Islam which are:

1, A single, indivisible God. (God, the creator, is just, omnipotent and merciful. "Allah" is often used to refer to God; it is the Arabic word for God.)

2. The angels.

3. The divine scriptures, which include the Torah, the Psalms, the rest of the Bible, (as they were originally revealed) and the Qur'an (which is composed of God's words, dictated by the Archangel Gabriel to Muhammad).

4.The Messengers of God, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus and Muhammad -- the last prophet; (peace be upon them). Muhammad's message is considered the final, universal message for all of humanity.

5.The Day of Judgment when people will be judged on the basis of their deeds while on earth, and will either attain reward of Heaven or punishment in Hell. They do not believe that Jesus or any other individual can atone for another person's sin. Hell is where unbelievers and sinners spend eternity. One translation of the Qur'an, 98:1-8, states: "The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures." ("People of the Book" refers to Christians, Jews and Muslims). Paradise is a place of physical and spiritual pleasure where the sinless go after death

6.The supremacy of God's will.

In it's simplest form that is what a Muslim is taught and is required to believe and follow. The sincere saying of the shahadah is sufficient for a person to be Muslim. But, it is always our responsibility to learn more to our full ability or the end of our life, whichever occurs first. For most of us our learning comes through reading, and asking questions of any we believe can tell us more. but, we always have the responsibility to verify what we learn and to verify the truth and authenticity of all things.

Essentially we are permitted to do all things that the Qur'an does not forbid. The entire Qur'an is contained in the Surah al-Fatihah 7 short lines. The remainder of the Qur'an explains how to live Surah Al-Fatihah

And many people with their religions live in a secular society and follow their faith just fine.

It is to bad you see living in a society where there is only one religion as a good thing. That is why there is so much violence in Muslim societies. They don't know how to live along side with other religions as equals.

That is really sad.
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Old 06-26-2011, 09:40 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,431,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
[/u][/i]


Jazzymom, I can add very little to what you have said here. I do believe that this is something that if you have not lived it,you would never fully understand it and that is the mistake that the European and Middle Eastern cultures have made in the past. The culuture and beliefs of the Native American are among the oldest in this world and because of individuals like myself it will continue to be taught and to survive.osay

Ptsum, I hope your traditions go on forever because in them I see peace and unity and a Creator who is good.
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Old 06-26-2011, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Metromess
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Woodrow LI: Athough your hypothetical "Islamic state" would be an improvement upon the so-called "Islamic republics", it would still be an undemocratic and repressive mixture of church and state which no one but (some) Muslims would want to live in. Is that what you want?
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Old 06-26-2011, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
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sorry I forgot Reply to this point


Quote:
Thus sunni have no problem killing shia. I have seen muslims in this forum say shia are not real muslims.


WRONG. who said that!!!! Is not permissible in islam that sunni kills to Shia or the Contrary, so, When we say that the Shiites in Iran do not follow the teachings of Islam but mullahs and Distorted Islam, that does not mean kill them at all, many many of Shiites and Sunnis live side by side in peace and Love
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Old 06-26-2011, 02:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weaam View Post
sorry I forgot Reply to this point





WRONG. who said that!!!! Is not permissible in islam that sunni kills to Shia or the Contrary, so, When we say that the Shiites in Iran do not follow the teachings of Islam but mullahs and Distorted Islam, that does not mean kill them at all, many many of Shiites and Sunnis live side by side in peace and Love

Yes many many live together in peace in countries with religious freedom and many many are killed in Islamic countries by other muslims.

Sunni kill Shia because they see them as being wrong in their belief.

Right now in Iraq Sunni are bombing and killing many Shia Muslims.

The news is full of these events. In this forum Muslims have said Shia are wrong in their form of Islam.

To say other wise would be incorrect.

There is little tolerance in Muslim countries.
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Old 06-26-2011, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
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What I don't understand is what difference does it make whether you're a Shiite,Sunnis,or Shia. Just because your of a different Islamic faith doesn't mean that you have the right to try and take the life of the others because they believe differently, you read the same book. That's like saying that the Catholics have a right to take the life of a Protestant or a Methodist or a Lutheran or a Baptist because they don't believe the same and yet all read the same book. Now how stupid is that, a human being is a human being regardless of what you believe.

This business of taking the lives of people that don't believe the same as you do is pretty archaic, what difference does it make if one person doesn't believe the same as the other or interprets the same sacred book a little differently than you do, nobody thinks exactly alike and everybody has their own opinions. Taking a person's life over the the different opinions of the same sacred book, in my opinion is really stupid and barbaric.
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Old 06-26-2011, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
616 posts, read 592,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Yes many many live together in peace in countries with religious freedom and many many are killed in Islamic countries by other muslims.

Sunni kill Shia because they see them as being wrong in their belief.

Right now in Iraq Sunni are bombing and killing many Shia Muslims.

The news is full of these events. In this forum Muslims have said Shia are wrong in their form of Islam.

To say other wise would be incorrect.

There is little tolerance in Muslim countries.


as there are Denominations in Christianity and Judaism so, it must be a denomination closer to the religion than the other


Quote:
Right now in Iraq Sunni are bombing and killing many Shia Muslims.


no one knows what is run in Iraq, Specifically in this issue, Killing is on both sides

Last edited by weaam; 06-26-2011 at 03:12 PM..
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