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Old 06-27-2011, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WonderingWanderer View Post
What is sad to me is how the Quran brings us together, but the hadiths seem to divide. I wish we didn't even have labels and could simply say "brother or sister" and that be enough.

There never was supposed to be any labels. Perhaps it is time we stop with the labels and actually see each other as Muslim, with no label attached.
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:39 PM
 
Location: PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There never was supposed to be any labels. Perhaps it is time we stop with the labels and actually see each other as Muslim, with no label attached.
I accept that wholeheartedly!
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by WonderingWanderer View Post
I accept that wholeheartedly!
It is good Akhi. We are of one Ummah
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
616 posts, read 591,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WonderingWanderer View Post
What is sad to me is how the Quran brings us together, but the hadiths seem to divide. I wish we didn't even have labels and could simply say "brother or sister" and that be enough.

look, my brother , Both the Quran and the hadiths are legislation

In the orders and prohibitions of Allah we are not differentiate between them, For that you may find some of the issues not mentioned in the Koran, but are mentioned in the hadiths

so, Both are Complete the other
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Old 06-27-2011, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WonderingWanderer View Post
Oh good. I am open to your explaination of this because this is where I fall off the wagon.
It seems to have created more divisions by interpretations and application than anything.
For instance, the Sunnis read and say I can't tattoo anyone. Shia (which is my leaning) says its fine. Which is it? Truth is truth regardless of the person. One has to be right, and the other wrong. Dogs are bad in hadiths, too. That is not indicated in the Quran. Why?
I have strong suspicions about the validity of hadiths, but am respectfully open to hearing your ideas.

Let me my brother know pleas, What was your teacher told you about the difference between Shiites and Sunnis ?
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Old 06-27-2011, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
10,513 posts, read 10,333,168 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As Salamu Alaikum Ahki,

The Ahadith while essential do easily cause misunderstandings and distrust wven among Brothers. To study the Hadith is most definetly a science and until one becomes a noted schilar of Ahadith, it is best to rely upon the guidance of those with knowledge.

The ahadith are what primarily divide sunni and shii. there is sufficient difference that some if not many sunni do not consider the Shi'a to be following Islam.

As a Sunni I only accept the Ahadith collections of Da'wud, Maliki, Bukhari and Muslim as being fully authenticated. The Shi'a accept 12 collections.

Also in understanding the Ahadith one must first establish the level of Authenticity, in otherwards establish how much validity there in that the person quoted, did witness what is said. Once that is established the next step is to reliability. the more witnesses saying the exact same thing the higher the reliability.

I do have a question about establishing Authenticity. While I understand the process that you use, I do question it, people have a tendency to repeat what others have said but at the same time that does not make it authentic. If one person witnesses the original person saying something and tells another what it is he witnessed, he could have altered what was said originally and then everybody else hear's what has been altered and not what has been truly said.

While the Ahadith when proven authenticate and reliable do let us know what the Prophet(PBUH) taught, care must be taken in understanding if what is quoted is meant for all time or are related to a specific incident or time. The Battle of Badr, is a good example of that. It lets us know what, when, how and why the battle was fought, but we can not relate all of it to all wrs as some things were specific for that battle.

I am only now beginning a serious study of the Ahadith and the best advice I can give, is if it does not contradict the Qur'an, assume it is true, unless you find different.
Although I am not a student of Islam and I have no belief in any organized religion, I do find it fascinating to learn.
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Old 06-27-2011, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
Although I am not a student of Islam and I have no belief in any organized religion, I do find it fascinating to learn.
The Science of Hatith is quite complex. In 1400 years only parts of the first 4 collection of Ahadith have been proven to be authenticate. Bukhari who probably did the first collection and he was alive at the time nearly all of the witnesses were still living and he was able to speak with them personally. Yet, out over 30,000 quotes he collected he was only able to verify something like 1400. although every quote attributed to Muhammad(PBUH) has been preserved, only the ones collected by the first 4 Imams have been verified beyond all doubt. An important purpose of the science of Hadith is to preserve all quotes in a manner that future generations will be able to verify them independently. (That is not the only purpose, but an important one)
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Old 06-27-2011, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
10,513 posts, read 10,333,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Science of Hatith is quite complex. In 1400 years only parts of the first 4 collection of Ahadith have been proven to be authenticate. Bukhari who probably did the first collection and he was alive at the time nearly all of the witnesses were still living and he was able to speak with them personally. Yet, out over 30,000 quotes he collected he was only able to verify something like 1400. although every quote attributed to Muhammad(PBUH) has been preserved, only the ones collected by the first 4 Imams have been verified beyond all doubt. An important purpose of the science of Hadith is to preserve all quotes in a manner that future generations will be able to verify them independently. (That is not the only purpose, but an important one)
Then that brings up another question. If only 1400 quotes of a collection of 30,000 have been authenticated then it's possible that some of those that have not been authenticated yet and may possibly be so in the future could radically change some of the meanings of the 1400 that have been authenticated to date. So it sounds like it's still a work in progress and still questionable as to its authenticity and true meaning.

Understand, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I'm asking questions to try and understand a little better.
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Old 06-27-2011, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
Then that brings up another question. If only 1400 quotes of a collection of 30,000 have been authenticated then it's possible that some of those that have not been authenticated yet and may possibly be so in the future could radically change some of the meanings of the 1400 that have been authenticated to date. So it sounds like it's still a work in progress and still questionable as to its authenticity and true meaning.

Understand, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I'm asking questions to try and understand a little better.
That is true. But keep in mind the Ahadith are not the word of God(swt) only the Qur'an is. If we find any hadith that are contradictory to the Qur'an we are not to follow them.

In the science of Ahadith there are 2 things to look at, First is the Authenticity, in other words to what level can it be proven the alleged witness was actually in the place and time to have witnessed what they say they saw and/or heard. The next issue is the lefel of reliability. That means how certain is it that what is written was exactly what the witness saw and heard. This level is determined by the number of witnesses. Typically a Hadith is considered questionable to some degree, unless there are at least 4 witnesses, all saying the exact same thing, word for word.

Many of the non-authenticated Hadith are identical to what was reported by others, but Bukhari could not validate the alleged witness was actually there at the time and place it was said/done.
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Old 06-27-2011, 04:43 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,426,733 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That is true. But keep in mind the Ahadith are not the word of God(swt) only the Qur'an is. If we find any hadith that are contradictory to the Qur'an we are not to follow them.

In the science of Ahadith there are 2 things to look at, First is the Authenticity, in other words to what level can it be proven the alleged witness was actually in the place and time to have witnessed what they say they saw and/or heard. The next issue is the lefel of reliability. That means how certain is it that what is written was exactly what the witness saw and heard. This level is determined by the number of witnesses. Typically a Hadith is considered questionable to some degree, unless there are at least 4 witnesses, all saying the exact same thing, word for word.

Many of the non-authenticated Hadith are identical to what was reported by others, but Bukhari could not validate the alleged witness was actually there at the time and place it was said/done.

It seems like the hadith are written by man and are simply examples to follow of the prophets words and actions.

Since they are man made and the prophet was a man, why are they followed at all?

I never understood that.
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