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Old 07-18-2011, 06:49 PM
 
439 posts, read 482,202 times
Reputation: 31

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it is a foolish thing to bet on hell.

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let us look at this matter in a logical and wise angle
if we apply this rule then the only way for someone to know that hell and paradise exist or do not exist is after he die .

then he will be in one of this three
1- he is finished and resting for ever with any joy or pain with no hell and no paradise
2- he is in paradise having fun he never taste before
3- he is in hell for ever and continous painful torture
in summary
a- the believer might get option 1 or option 2 but for sure he would not get option 3

b- the athiest might get option 1 and also might get option 3

now
from logic and wise angle
the objective for any person with tiny intelligence to reach result in part a summary

 
Old 07-18-2011, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,144 posts, read 5,107,297 times
Reputation: 2539
Option 4: There is a god and an afterlife, but not the one you believed in and therefore you will be tortured forever.

Option 5: God rewards disbelief and therefore sends atheists to heaven. He punishes faih though and therefore sends the faithful to burn forever.

Option 6: There is an afterlife, but it is reincarnation rather than heaven or hell.

If there is no afterlife then every second matters. If you go to nothing then spending time on gods is time gone to waste.

Last edited by agnostic soldier; 07-18-2011 at 08:36 PM..
 
Old 07-18-2011, 07:41 PM
 
Location: planet octupulous is nearing earths atmosphere
13,624 posts, read 11,057,520 times
Reputation: 19980
option 7,, all that worship false idols in ostentatious mosques and churches shall be cast down to the bowels of hell for eternity,!!! to be roasted at a temp of no less than 5321 ferinheight..

option 8,,, atheist and agnostics that don't proselytize their beliefs, get to go to the place of 96 .7 virgins
 
Old 07-18-2011, 08:38 PM
 
6,272 posts, read 10,023,228 times
Reputation: 4724
Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmessage View Post
from logic and wise angle
the objective for any person with tiny intelligence to reach result in part a summary
Let's look at this from a "what if God exists" angle. Wouldn't an omniscient/omnipotent being know the difference between those that believe in him because he is in their hearts; vs. those that ONLY "believe" in him as a safety net out of Hell's fire?

With that said, why are you asking atheists to break one of your God's commandments (ya know, the one about lying).
 
Old 07-18-2011, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,498,129 times
Reputation: 1018
Some of what follows comes from: Pascal's Wager Refuted And some of it comes from me.

"Pascal's Wager (call it "PW") may be formulated as follows:
(a) If God exists, then whoever doesn't believe in him will end up being eternally tormented.
(b) If God exists, then whoever believes in him will gain eternal life.
(c) If God doesn't exist, then whether or not people believe in him can't matter very much.
(d) Hence [from (a)-(c)], nontheists are running a grave risk. At the very least, the expected utility of their belief situation is infinitely worse than that of theists.
(e) But such people are able to self-induce theistic belief.
(f) Therefore [from (d) & (e)], all nontheists ought to change their beliefs and become theists.
Here are some objections to PW:"


* If God exists and he does eternally torment non-believers, then I don't want anything to do will him. He is evil and heartless, and I would rather be tormented than align with him. Let my pain stand as a testament to his evilness.


"* According to the Bible, more is required for salvation than mere belief in God. One also needs to believe in God's son (Mark 16:16; John 3:18,36, 8:21-25, 14:6; Acts 4:10-12; I John 5:12), repent (Luke 13:3,5), be born again (John 3:3), be born of the water and of the Spirit (John 3:5), believe everything in the gospel (Mark 16:16), eat the flesh of Jesus and drink his blood (John 6:53), be like a child (Mark 10:15), and do good deeds, esp. for needy people (Matt. 25:41-46; Rom. 2:5-10; John 5:28-29; James 2:14-26). Therefore, premise (b) of PW is not generally true, so far as the Bible is concerned. And, furthermore, apart from the Bible, there is no reason whatever to believe that premise. Thus, PW's premise (b) can reasonably be doubted.


* Many people who believe in God devote significant time to prayer and church activities. Such people presumably also contribute money, perhaps a tithe (10% of their income). Without that belief, most of them would not do such things. In addition, many such people go through life with inhibitions on both thought and behavior. (Consider, for example, inhibitions regarding sexual practices, marriage & divorce, birth control, abortion, reading material, and association with other people.) In many cases, those inhibitions are quite extreme and may have great effects on one's life and the lives of others. In some communities, women are oppressed on the basis of theistic belief. Also, some theists have persecuted and even killed others (as in inquisitions, religious wars, attacks on homosexuals, abortionists, etc.) because of their belief that that is what God wants them to do. Furthermore, some people (e.g., clergymen) devote their entire lives to God. For these various reasons, even if God does not exist, it would indeed matter a great deal whether or not one believes in God, at least for most such believers. It follows that premise (c) of PW is false.


* It may be that God does not exist and, instead, some other being rules the universe. That being may dislike intensely and may inflict infinite punishment on anyone who believes in God or who believes anything out of self-interest (as recommended in PW). But a person who comes to believe in God on the basis of PW would in that case be in "a heap of trouble," even though God does not exist. The expected utility of the theist's belief situation would be infinitely worse than that of the nontheist. It follows that premise (c) of PW is false."


* Stated in a slightly different way, if one picks Jehovah and you should have picked Zeus, then believers in Jehovah are in a heap of trouble. There are an infinite number of possible gods out there. If you pick one and I pick none, our odds are nearly the same given how many chances we have of being wrong. And if you believe in all gods, and there is only one, he may be jealous and torment you for it.


"* To believe in God, one must believe propositions that are, from the standpoint of most nontheists, impossible (or at least very hard) to believe. For that reason, PW's premise (e) can be rejected.


* Belief is not directly subject to the will. So, it is impossible (or at least very difficult) for nontheists to self-induce theistic belief. This also renders PW's premise (e) false.


For all of these reasons, PW ought to be rejected."

* PW offers a false dichotomy, that there are only these two possibilities. It might be that God does exist and doesn't care whether or not you believe in him, but rewards good behavior regardless, or rewards critical thinking and skepticism. Then it would be the non-skeptics that miss out on rewards.

* If a god exists and is any good at all, he will not condemn people who do not believe in him.
 
Old 07-18-2011, 11:54 PM
 
Location: around the way
656 posts, read 932,257 times
Reputation: 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by cruxan View Post
option 7,, all that worship false idols in ostentatious mosques and churches shall be cast down to the bowels of hell for eternity,!!! to be roasted at a temp of no less than 5321 ferinheight..

option 8,,, atheist and agnostics that don't proselytize their beliefs, get to go to the place of 96 .7 virgins
.7 virgin? Sounds like a lot of girls I knew in high school. Fairly close, but not quite the real deal for those who care about details.
 
Old 07-19-2011, 01:52 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,347 posts, read 2,974,590 times
Reputation: 2026
Quote:
8,,, atheist and agnostics that don't proselytize their beliefs, get to go to the place of 96 .7 virgins
They are female, right? That is highly important.

Oh, wait! They are human too, right? I see no reason to cease proselytizing unless my virgins are both female and human. We all need to find a place to take a stand, and this where I draw the line.
 
Old 07-19-2011, 05:41 AM
 
817 posts, read 1,431,493 times
Reputation: 1476
What about a paradise for everyone who behaved well irrespective of belief? Or a maybe a hell for everyone?

Really option 4 by agnosticsoldier leads to an infinite number of possibilities, making the whole wager worthless.
 
Old 07-19-2011, 06:09 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,056 posts, read 30,523,672 times
Reputation: 10490
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXRunner View Post
What about a paradise for everyone who behaved well irrespective of belief?
Nah...that would never work!
 
Old 07-19-2011, 06:36 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 5,261,431 times
Reputation: 670
Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmessage View Post
it is a foolish thing to bet on hell.

.........
.......
......
.....
....
...
..
.
let us look at this matter in a logical and wise angle
if we apply this rule then the only way for someone to know that hell and paradise exist or do not exist is after he die .

then he will be in one of this three
1- he is finished and resting for ever with any joy or pain with no hell and no paradise
2- he is in paradise having fun he never taste before
3- he is in hell for ever and continous painful torture
in summary
a- the believer might get option 1 or option 2 but for sure he would not get option 3

b- the athiest might get option 1 and also might get option 3

now
from logic and wise angle
the objective for any person with tiny intelligence to reach result in part a summary
How about we continue where we left off from here and go to a place that is fitted for our souls condition. Meaning, how much love we have for God and each other. If no love, darkness (hell). If alot of love and overflowing for each other, light (heaven). "Let there be light" because the light of God is Love. Darkness is merely the absense of any love.
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