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Old 08-20-2011, 11:40 PM
 
Location: England
52 posts, read 51,249 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
In the New Testament, The "adulteres" story is a later and illegitimate addition. Jesus never talked about being kind to gays. Jesus said to abandone all your family, children, and friends if they don't accept true Judaism. And I believe he also said that if they pester you, you should kill them. Plus he said "I come not to bring peace, but to bring division (separate the good from the bad)".
Adulteress story a later addition? Prove it..
Jesus never said a word about gays/lesbians one way or the other, he simply never mentioned them.
He said abandon your family if they try to stop you following him, but he never said to follow Judaism, and he never said to kill them.
He knew that if anybody abandoned the old traditional family religion it would rip families apart, but that couldn't be helped.
And his fan base began to grow..

"Jesus saved you from the empty way of life handed you by your forefathers" (1 Pet 1:18 )
"Through Jesus we are saved,and not through Moses" (Acts 13:39)
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Old 08-20-2011, 11:45 PM
 
Location: England
52 posts, read 51,249 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
..In many parts, he actually made the law harder and stricter. For example, now, just "thinking" about adultery is considered a sin. unmutual divorce (or divorse in general) is considered a sin just as grave as adultery...
But if he made the New Law harder, why didn't people reject him by saying "On yer bike mate" and stick with the 'easier' Old Law?
He certainly seemed to press all their right buttons..

"Through Jesus we are saved,and not through Moses" (Acts 13:39)
"The covenant of Jesus is superior to the old one" (Heb 8:6-13)
"Jesus is worthy of more honour than Moses" (Heb 3:3)
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Old 08-20-2011, 11:52 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,753,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waymarker View Post
But if he made the New Law harder, why didn't people reject him by saying "On yer bike mate" and stick with the 'easier' Old Law?
He certainly seemed to press all their right buttons..

"Through Jesus we are saved,and not through Moses" (Acts 13:39)
"The covenant of Jesus is superior to the old one" (Heb 8:6-13)
"Jesus is worthy of more honour than Moses" (Heb 3:3)
Because he also said all sins could be forgiven other than "Blasphemy" against the Holy Spirit a.k.a. not accepting "true" Judaism or saying Jesus was misguided by demons.

Interestingly enough, I guess suicide is a forgiveable sin. No wonder the early Christians went to the slaughter house in droves, and so easily allowed themselves to be "martyred". Truely, the blessings of God must have been upon them. Of course, the pagans probably deamed them criminals because they were such annoying frothing missionaries.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 08-21-2011 at 12:05 AM..
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Old 08-21-2011, 12:00 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waymarker View Post
You go first and prove he wasn't the Son of God..
As for the adulteress episode, every true Christian accepts it happened.
Sure, Jesus came to uphold the 10 Commandments, but not the harsh stuff, which is why he threw out stuff like "an eye for an eye" and replaced it with "forgive your enemies".

But please tell us why you prefer being a muslim rather than a Christian, and also how come you live on an indian reservation..?
If you believe most Christians believe the story about the Adultress, you may want to check out the site that says this (It is a Christian Bible study site):

Quote:
Biblical scholars are nearly all agreed that the Story of the Adulteress (also known as the Pericope Adulterae or the Pericope de Adultera) usually printed in Bibles as John 7:53-8:11 is a later addition to the Gospel. On this page I present some extended quotations from scholarly works that explain the reasons for this judgment. On another page I give an extract from one of the few scholarly defenders of the passage. To give my own opinion, it seems clear to me that the story does not belong in the Bible. If despite its absence from the early manuscripts this passage is thought to be so edifying that it is worthy of being treated as Holy Scripture, we might with equal justice add any number of edifying ancient stories to the Bible. The Quo Vadis legend about Peter's martyrdom, for instance, might just as well be added to the canonical book of Acts. more on this, see my essay, Quo Vadis?


Page NB (52) of Papyrus 66, a codex of John's Gospel from about AD 200, illustrates the omission of the Story of the Adulteress from early manuscripts. The text begins in the middle of the word εραυνησον ("search") in John 7:52. On the second line the sentence ends with a punctuation mark and is immediately followed by Παλιν ουν αυτοις ελαλησεν ο Ις ("again Jesus spoke to them") in 8:12. The manuscript has been annotated by a scribe who used diagonal strokes to note a word-order variant in the first and second lines, but the Story of the Adulteress is omitted without any scribal notation. Click on the image for a larger view.
SOURCE

I will make it easy on you to understand that it is an impossibility to prove what is not true. I think you and I are quite certain I never died on the cross and was resurrected.

Now prove I did not die on the cross two weeks ago and arose from the dead 3 days later. You can not prove that did not happen.

I was Christian for most of my life, until Jesus(as) finally led me to Islam. I live on an Indian reservation because my wife is Northern Cheyenne. We have met too many hostilities in the white Christian world.

If you ever want to learn the truth about how Christians treat other people. convert to Islam and face Christian "Love" as it is really practiced by many Christians. I now consider the death threats we get to be love letters. But it does hurt to see my wife spit at, have children kick her and the parents laugh and those are often the nice things. True, not all christians are like that and we do have Christians friends, but it is an eye opener to see how much hatred many have.
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Old 08-21-2011, 01:45 AM
 
Location: England
52 posts, read 51,249 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If you believe most Christians believe the story about the Adultress, you may want to check out the site that says this (It is a Christian Bible study site):

I was Christian for most of my life, until Jesus(as) finally led me to Islam. I live on an Indian reservation because my wife is Northern Cheyenne. We have met too many hostilities in the white Christian world.

I now consider the death threats we get to be love letters. But it does hurt to see my wife spit at, have children kick her and the parents laugh and those are often the nice things. True, not all christians are like that and we do have Christians friends, but it is an eye opener to see how much hatred many have.
But if the adulteress story was added to the gospels as you allege, so what? Why would anybody want to add it?

When Jesus 'led you to Islam', did he convince you to abandon this too?- "Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"-Jesus of Nazareth

You say you have Christian friends? Tut-tut whatever would your Imam say?-
[Koran 5.51] "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people"

As for the death threats you say you get from christians, christians don't send death threats or they wouldn't be christians, gettit? It's a pity you've let them block you from Jesus.
I get hate mail from phoney 'christians' too, but it's water off a duck's back to me, like this one-
"You disgust me Mick"- Reverend Eric Potts

(mind you, Potts is not a real vicar, he's just a trumped-up 'Assistant Methodist Minister', my guess is that he's the janitor of their local meeting hall and they gave him that lofty title to keep him sweet because of the good work he does mopping out their latrines)..
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Old 08-21-2011, 01:59 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Waymarker:

Muslims are allowed to be friends with anyone they want, but they must understand that it is dangerous because religions are like hats and sooner or later, you will like the fashion that your friends employ. How can a true faithful Christian be a friend of anyone who they don't try to constantly convert to Christianity?

Jesus likely led Woodrow to Islam because Jesus' followers mention in the New Testament that Jesus said that his Father was "greater than him". Plus, Muslims say that Jesus was a Muslim. So perhaps while Woodrow was trying to convert a Muslim, he was converted himself.

Muslims don't needlessly and wantonly crash airplanes into buildings or else they wouldn't be Muslims. Perhaps it's a pity you let paganesque Christianity and false Muslims block you from the Single and Only God.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 08-21-2011 at 02:09 AM..
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Old 08-21-2011, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waymarker View Post
But if the adulteress story was added to the gospels as you allege, so what? Why would anybody want to add it?
As bit of reverse engineering. The Orthoodox/Catholic church was still just organizing and to discredit the Jews and especially the Jewish Ebionite sect, it was added as an after thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waymarker View Post
When Jesus 'led you to Islam', did he convince you to abandon this too?- "Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"-Jesus of Nazareth
The Qur'an did not change any of the true teachings of Jesus(as) which were in the Injil Jesus(as) actually taught. We do believe the actual message Jesus(as) taught was the truth. but very little remained in the NT. We believe that some of the quotes attributed Jesus(as) were from Him and are the truth. but very little of what he taught was saved in the Bible. It was while using the bible and trying to find what Jesus(as) really taught that I say Jesus led me away from the bible and was the first step towards Islam. I came to understand the bible did not save the teachings of Jesus(as). Although Jesus(as)led me away from the Bible and showed me the fallacy of what was being taught in his name that was the first step to Islam. It still took me another 20 years to accept Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waymarker View Post
You say you have Christian friends? Tut-tut whatever would your Imam say?-
[Koran 5.51] "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people"
Since I am the Imam at the Mosque I attend, I have no disagreements with the Imam.

The Ayyat actually uses the word Wali not friends, there is no English word for Wali, many translators translate it as friend in error. A wali is a protector, more a protector of your faith. the duty of a wali is to properly guide you in Islam and to protect you from enemies of Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waymarker View Post
As for the death threats you say you get from christians, christians don't send death threats or they wouldn't be christians, gettit? It's a pity you've let them block you from Jesus.
I get hate mail from phoney 'christians' too, but it's water off a duck's back to me, like this one-
"You disgust me Mick"- Reverend Eric Potts
I agree that the ones making threats do not represent all Christians, but they seem to think they are and often are the ones trying to convert people to Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waymarker View Post
(mind you, Potts is not a real vicar, he's just a trumped-up 'Assistant Methodist Minister', my guess is that he's the janitor of their local meeting hall and they gave him that lofty title to keep him sweet because of the good work he does mopping out their latrines)..
I'm friends with a Methodist Bishop. Never had any issues with Methodists. In fact on more than one occasion Methodist pastors have let me use the Church to hold our Friday Jummah Prayers.
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Old 08-21-2011, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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[quote=LuminousTruth;20542641]Waymarker:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Muslims are allowed to be friends with anyone they want, but they must understand that it is dangerous because religions are like hats and sooner or later, you will like the fashion that your friends employ. How can a true faithful Christian be a friend of anyone who they don't try to constantly convert to Christianity?
True. The prohibition is to not have a non-Muslim as your wali, which is much deeper than the concept of friend. It is like a surrogate Father, protector and Islamic teacher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Jesus likely led Woodrow to Islam because Jesus' followers mention in the New Testament that Jesus said that his Father was "greater than him". Plus, Muslims say that Jesus was a Muslim. So perhaps while Woodrow was trying to convert a Muslim, he was converted himself.
It was the first step, still took me another 20 years before Islam found me. But it was what Jesus(as) wrote that allowed me to accept Islam. I fought against Islam for most of my life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Muslims don't needlessly and wantonly crash airplanes into buildings or else they wouldn't be Muslims. Perhaps it's a pity you let paganesque Christianity and false Muslims block you from the Single and Only God.
If anything those are going to find themselves in Hell fire. The suicide bombers violate so much of the Qur'an it is unbelievable. Some of the things they violate:

1. Suicide is absolutely forbidden.

2. It is forbidden to kill non-combatants and care must be taken to avoid harming women, children, disalbed, elderly and clergy of any faith

3. It is forbidden to kill by fire. (During the time of Muhammad(PBUH) the Arabs had developed a weapon similar to the "Greek Fire" sort of like a flame thrower. But the Muslims never used them in war even though they were available.
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Old 08-21-2011, 04:35 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,753,906 times
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Woodrow,

I am sorry to say, but I believe you made a tiny mistake, as it is my understanding that Jesus didn't write anything, although he spoke Aramaic and was capable of Reading (so probably also writting).

Also, as a side note: Greek Fire is a very interesting weapon, the more water you pour at it, the more it consumes and the bigger it becomes! However, Fire warfare is a type of warfare by complete annahilation... So perhaps it isn't so ethical.
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Woodrow,

I am sorry to say, but I believe you made a tiny mistake, as it is my understanding that Jesus didn't write anything, although he spoke Aramaic and was capable of Reading (so probably also writting).
You are correct, there is no evidence that Jesus(as) wrote anything. With one exception that being what he wrote in the sand in the story of the adulteress, however the general consensus of theologians and Bible scholars is that never happened and the story was added at a later date.

however from what we know aboutHim it is almost certain he was able to read and write. He was a pious Jew and would have had his Bar Mitzvah, I doubt if he could have studied for that without being able to read and write. Based on the incident with the scholars in the Temple we do know he was very intelligent and well educated. he was also often called Rabbi (teacher) I believe it is reasonable to assume he could read and write.

now the question arises why was not even one word of what he wrote preserved. Some possibilities.

1. He never existed. I do not believe that is true.

2. His followers did not think his writing was worth preserving. If that is true that would indicate his followers did not believe he was divine or the Son of God. But even then it seems his writings would have been preserved by those who believed he spoke the truth.

3, His writings contradicted what the Bible eventually said. That I think is the most probable. His writings did not agree with the writings of Paul or the NT authors. In other words he was gnostic and not in agreement with Christianity. so like all gnostic writings, they were cast aside.
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