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Old 08-21-2011, 08:02 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You are correct, there is no evidence that Jesus(as) wrote anything. With one exception that being what he wrote in the sand in the story of the adulteress, however the general consensus of theologians and Bible scholars is that never happened and the story was added at a later date.

however from what we know aboutHim it is almost certain he was able to read and write. He was a pious Jew and would have had his Bar Mitzvah, I doubt if he could have studied for that without being able to read and write. Based on the incident with the scholars in the Temple we do know he was very intelligent and well educated. he was also often called Rabbi (teacher) I believe it is reasonable to assume he could read and write.

now the question arises why was not even one word of what he wrote preserved. Some possibilities.

1. He never existed. I do not believe that is true.

2. His followers did not think his writing was worth preserving. If that is true that would indicate his followers did not believe he was divine or the Son of God. But even then it seems his writings would have been preserved by those who believed he spoke the truth.

3, His writings contradicted what the Bible eventually said. That I think is the most probable. His writings did not agree with the writings of Paul or the NT authors. In other words he was gnostic and not in agreement with Christianity. so like all gnostic writings, they were cast aside.
There are more possiblities than that. For example, if he wrote anything down it would have been interpreted as a change in the law, a clear act of arrogance. However, if he simply urged people to take a more liberal and morally based interpretation of the spirit of the law, then perhaps there would be more freedoms, less waste, and a greater and truer morality. In this case, far less Jews would have reason to convert to the more popular, current, Gentile religions.
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Old 08-21-2011, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
There are more possiblities than that. For example, if he wrote anything down it would have been interpreted as a change in the law, a clear act of arrogance. However, if he simply urged people to take a more liberal and morally based interpretation of the spirit of the law, then perhaps there would be more freedoms, less waste, and a greater and truer morality. In this case, far less Jews would have reason to convert to the more popular, current, Gentile religions.
I can not deny that is a possibility. But would that not be evidence he was a man and not the Son of God(swt)? This seems to indicate he had no knowledge he would be crucified and that He would arise from the dead. as the Bible claims. If he knew those things he would have no reason to worry about the thoughts of the Jews and his written words would later serve to convert the Jews.

Going back to my opinion, the fact none of his writings exist is an indication he was neither the son of God(swt) or part of a Trinity. If he did not write any it was to avoid alienating the Jews, which does seem to be a human concern. If he did write they were not preserved because they did not support what became the NT.

The fact we have nothing written by him, while not proof, is supporting evidence He is not God(swt).
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Old 08-22-2011, 05:23 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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"Are Muslims permitted to own dogs?"

This is an a question filled with misconceptions by both Muslims and Non-Muslims. I am actually going to address this specifiacally to Muslims. I am not going to attempt any Tafsir but will simply post the Ahadith and ayyats that pertain to dogs and then answer with a few comments and questions and let each person decide on their own. For the non-Muslims You may notice that it seems like I am posting multiple copies of each Hadith. the reason for this is while the same thing is said, it is from different sources that a Muslim can verify to determine the reliability and authenticity of each hadith. Because Bukhari has the largest collection I am starting with him. and allow time for any comments before continuing with Muslim, Dawud and Maliki

From Bukhari:


Volume 1, Book 4, Number 173:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "If a dog drinks from the utensil of anyone of you it is essential to wash it seven times."

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 174:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "A man saw a dog eating mud from (the severity of) thirst. So, that man took a shoe (and filled it) with water and kept on pouring the water for the dog till it quenched its thirst. So Allah approved of his deed and made him to enter Paradise." And narrated Hamza bin 'Abdullah: My father said. "During the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, the dogs used to urinate, and pass through the mosques (come and go), nevertheless they never used to sprinkle water on it (urine of the dog.)"

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 175:

Narrated 'Adi bin Hatim:

I asked the Prophet (about the hunting dogs) and he replied, "If you let loose (with Allah's name) your tamed dog after a game and it hunts it, you may eat it, but if the dog eats of (that game) then do not eat it because the dog has hunted it for itself." I further said, "Sometimes I send my dog for hunting and find another dog with it. He said, "Do not eat the game for you have mentioned Allah's name only on sending your dog and not the other dog."

Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away. for I disliked to face him."

Volume 1, Book 9, Number 493:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The things which annual prayer were mentioned before me (and those were): a dog, a donkey and a woman. I said, "You have compared us (women) to donkeys and dogs. By Allah! I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in (my) bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I disliked to sit and trouble the Prophet. So, I would slip away by the side of his feet."

Volume 3, Book 29, Number 54:

Narrated Hafsa:

Allah's Apostle said, "It is not sinful (of a Muhrim) to kill five kinds of animals, namely: the crow, the kite, the mouse, the scorpion and the rabid dog."

Volume 3, Book 29, Number 55:

Narrated Aisha:

Allah's Apostle said, "Five kinds of animals are harmful and could be killed in the Haram (Sanctuary). These are: the crow, the kite, the scorpion, the mouse and the rabid dog."

Volume 3, Book 34, Number 270:

Narrated 'Adi bin Hatim:

I asked Allah's Apostle about Al Mirad (i.e. a sharp-edged piece of wood or a piece of wood provided with a piece of iron used for hunting). He replied, "If the game is hit by its sharp edge, eat it, and if it is hit by its broad side, do not eat it, for it has been beaten to death." I asked, "O Allah's Apostle! I release my dog by the name of Allah and find with it at the game, another dog on which I have not mentioned the name of Allah, and I do not know which one of them caught the game." Allah's Apostle said (to him), 'Don't eat it as you have mentioned the name of Allah on your dog and not on the other dog."

Volume 3, Book 34, Number 299:

Narrated 'Aun bin Abu Juhaifa:

My father bought a slave who practiced the profession of cupping. (My father broke the slave's instruments of cupping). I asked my father why he had done so. He replied, "The Prophet forbade the acceptance of the price of a dog or blood, and also forbade the profession of tattooing, getting tattooed and receiving or giving Riba, (usury), and cursed the picture-makers."

Volume 3, Book 34, Number 439:

Narrated Abu Mas'ud Al-Ansari:

Allah's Apostle forbade taking the price of a dog, money earned by prostitution and the earnings of a soothsayer.

Volume 3, Book 34, Number 440:

Narrated Aun bin Abu Juhaifa:

I saw my father buying a slave whose profession was cupping, and ordered that his instruments (of cupping) be broken. I asked him the reason for doing so. He replied, "Allah's Apostle prohibited taking money for blood, the price of a dog, and the earnings of a slave-girl by prostitution; he cursed her who tattoos and her who gets tattooed, the eater of Riba (usury), and the maker of pictures."

Volume 3, Book 36, Number 482:

Narrated Abu Masud Al-Ansari:

Allah's Apostle regarded illegal the price of a dog, the earnings of a prostitute, and the charges taken by a soothsayer.

Volume 3, Book 39, Number 515:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever keeps a dog, one Qirat of the reward of his good deeds is deducted daily, unless the dog is used for guarding a farm or cattle." Abu Huraira (in another narration) said from the Prophet, "unless it is used for guarding sheep or farms, or for hunting." Narrated Abu Hazim from Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A dog for guarding cattle or for hunting."

Volume 3, Book 39, Number 516:

Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid:

Abu Sufyan bin Abu Zuhair, a man from Azd Shanu'a and one of the companions of the Prophet said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'If one keeps a dog which is meant for guarding neither a farm nor cattle, one Qirat of the reward of his good deeds is deducted daily." I said, "Did you hear this from Allah's Apostle?" He said, "Yes, by the Lord of this Mosque."

Volume 3, Book 40, Number 551:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "While a man was walking he felt thirsty and went down a well and drank water from it. On coming out of it, he saw a dog panting and eating mud because of excessive thirst. The man said, 'This (dog) is suffering from the same problem as that of mine. So he (went down the well), filled his shoe with water, caught hold of it with his teeth and climbed up and watered the dog. Allah thanked him for his (good) deed and forgave him." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Is there a reward for us in serving (the) animals?" He replied, "Yes, there is a reward for serving any animate."

Volume 3, Book 43, Number 646:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "A man felt very thirsty while he was on the way, there he came across a well. He went down the well, quenched his thirst and came out. Meanwhile he saw a dog panting and licking mud because of excessive thirst. He said to himself, "This dog is suffering from thirst as I did." So, he went down the well again and filled his shoe with water and watered it. Allah thanked him for that deed and forgave him. The people said, "O Allah's Apostle! Is there a reward for us in serving the animals?" He replied: "Yes, there is a reward for serving any animate (living being)." (See Hadith No. 551)

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 448:

Narrated Abu Talha:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying; "Angels (of Mercy) do not enter a house wherein there is a dog or a picture of a living creature (a human being or an animal)."

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 450:

Narrated Salim's father:

Once Gabriel promised the Prophet (that he would visit him, but Gabriel did not come) and later on he said, "We, angels, do not enter a house which contains a picture or a dog."

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 531:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet said, "Five kinds of animals are mischief-doers and can be killed even in the Sanctuary: They are the rat the scorpion, the kite, the crow and the rabid dog."

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 532:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "It is not sinful of a person in the state of Ihram to kill any of these five animals: The scorpion, the rat, the rabid dog, the crow and the kite."

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 538:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that."

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 539:

Narrated Abu Talha:

The Prophet said, "Angels do not enter a house witch has either a dog or a picture in it."

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 540:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle ordered that the dogs should be killed.

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 541:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "If somebody keeps a dog, he loses one Qirat (of the reward) of his good deeds everyday, except if he keeps it for the purpose of agriculture or for the protection of livestock. "

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 542:

Narrated Sufyan bin Abi Zuhair Ash-Shani:

That he heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If somebody keeps a dog that is neither used for farm work nor for guarding the livestock, he will lose one Qirat (of the reward) of his good deeds everyday."

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 673:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "While a dog was going round a well and was about to die of thirst, an Israeli prostitute saw it and took off her shoe and watered it. So Allah forgave her because of that good deed."

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 338:

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

Abu Talha, a companion of Allah's Apostle and one of those who fought at Badr together with Allah's Apostle told me that Allah's Apostle said. "Angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture" He meant the images of creatures that have souls.

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 258:

Narrated Abu Mas'ud:

The Prophet prohibited taking the price of a dog, the earnings of a soothsayer and the money earned by prostitution.

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 259:

Narrated Abu Juhaifa:

The Prophet cursed the lady who practices tattooing and the one who gets herself tattooed, and one who eats (takes) Riba' (usury) and the one who gives it. And he prohibited taking the price of a dog, and the money earned by prostitution, and cursed the makers of pictures.

Volume 7, Book 67, Number 384:

Narrated Adi bin Hatim:

I asked the Prophet about the game killed by a Mi'rad (i.e. a sharp-edged piece of wood or a piece of wood provided with a sharp piece of iron used for hunting). He said, "If the game is killed with its sharp edge, eat of it, but if it is killed with its shaft, with a hit by its broad side then the game is (unlawful to eat) for it has been beaten to death." I asked him about the game killed by a trained hound. He said, "If the hound catches the game for you, eat of it, for killing the game by the hound, is like its slaughtering. But if you see with your hound or hounds another dog, and you are afraid that it might have shared in hunting the game with your hound and killed it, then you should not eat of it, because you have mentioned Allah's name on (sending) your hound only, but you have not mentioned it on some other hound

Volume 7, Book 67, Number 385:

Narrated 'Adi bin Hatim:

I asked Allah's Apostle about the Mi'rad. He said, "If you hit the game with its sharp edge, eat it, but if the Mi'rad hits the game with its shaft with a hit by its broad side do not eat it, for it has been beaten to death with a piece of wood. (i.e. unlawful)." I asked, "If I let loose my trained hound after a game?" He said, "If you let loose your trained hound after game, and mention the name of Allah, then you can eat." I said, "If the hound eats of the game?" He said "Then you should not eat of it, for the hound has hunted the game for itself and not for you." I said, "Some times I send my hound and then I find some other hound with it?" He said "Don't eat the game, as you have mentioned the Name of Allah on your dog only and not on the other."

Volume 7, Book 67, Number 386:

Narrated Adi bin Hatim:

I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We let loose our trained hounds after a game?" He said, "Eat what they hunt for you." I said, "Even if they killed (the game)?" He replied, 'Even if they killed (the game)." I said, 'We also hit (the game) with the Mi'rad?" He said, "Eat of the animal which the Mi'rad kills by piercing its body, but do not eat of the animal which is killed by the broad side of the Mi'rad.''

Volume 7, Book 67, Number 389:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

The Prophet said, "Whoever keeps a (pet) dog which is neither a watch dog nor a hunting dog, will get a daily deduction of two Qirat from his good deeds."

Volume 7, Book 67, Number 390:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar:

I heard the Prophet saying, "If someone keeps a dog neither for hunting, nor for guarding livestock, the reward (for his good deeds) will be reduced by two Qirats per day."

Volume 7, Book 67, Number 391:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "If someone keeps a dog neither for guarding livestock, nor for hunting, his good deeds will decrease (in reward) by two Qirats a day.'

Volume 7, Book 67, Number 392:

Narrated Adi bin Hatim:

I asked Allah's Apostle. "We hunt with the help of these hounds." He said, "If you let loose your trained hounds after a game, and mention the name of Allah, then you can eat what the hounds catch for you, even if they killed the game. But you should not eat of it if the hound has eaten of it, for then it is likely that the hound has caught the game for itself. And if other hounds join your hound in hunting the game, then do not eat of it."

Volume 7, Book 67, Number 393:

Narrated Adi bin Hatim:

The Prophet said, "If you let loose your hound after a game and mention Allah's Name on sending it, and the hound catches the game and kills it, then you can eat of it. But if the hound eats of it, then you should not eat thereof, for the hound has caught it for itself. And if along with your hound, join other hounds, and Allah's Name was not mentioned at the time of their sending, and they catch an animal and kill it, you should not ea: of it, for you will not know which of them has killed it. And if you have thrown an arrow at the game and then find it (dead) two or three days later and, it bears no mark other than the wound inflicted by your arrow, then you can eat of it. But if the game is found (dead) in water, then do not eat of it." And it has also been narrated by 'Adi bin Hatim that he asked the Prophet "If a hunter throws an arrow at the game and after tracing it for two or three days he finds it dead but still bearing his arrow, (can he eat of it)?" The Prophet replied, "He can eat if he wishes."

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 656:

Narrated Abu Mas'ud:

The Prophet forbade the utilization of the price of a dog, the earnings of prostitute and the earnings of a foreteller

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 829:

Narrated Abu Juhaifa:

The Prophet forbade the use of the price of blood and the price of a dog, the one who takes (eats) usury the one who gives usury, the woman who practises tattooing and the woman who gets herself tattooed.

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 833:

Narrated Abu Talha :

The Prophet said, "Angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or there are pictures."

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 843:

Narrated Salim's father:

Once Gabriel promised to visit the Prophet but he delayed and the Prophet got worried about that. At last he came out and found Gabriel and complained to him of his grief (for his delay). Gabriel said to him, "We do not enter a place in which there is a picture or a dog."

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 845:

Narrated Abu Juhaifa:

that he had bought a slave whose profession was cupping. The Prophet forbade taking the price of blood and the price of a dog and the earnings of a prostitute, and cursed the one who took or gave (Riba') usury, and the lady who tattooed others or got herself tattooed, and the picture-maker.

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 38:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "While a man was walking on a road. he became very thirsty. Then he came across a well, got down into it, drank (of its water) and then came out. Meanwhile he saw a dog panting and licking mud because of excessive thirst. The man said to himself "This dog is suffering from the same state of thirst as I did." So he went down the well (again) and filled his shoe (with water) and held it in his mouth and watered the dog. Allah thanked him for that deed and forgave him." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Is there a reward for us in serving the animals?" He said, "(Yes) There is a reward for serving any animate (living being) ."



From the Ahadith it does appear that the Muslims at Muhammad's (PBUH) did have dogs, it even seems probable Muhammad(PBUH) had at least one. Note: that Jibreel did not enter his house because there was a dog in it.

It does seem that we are not permitted to make money by selling dogs, but is there any restriction for giving them away? Is there any thing that prohibits the ownership of a dog? Is there any penalty for having one as a pet, except for the lose of some credit for good deeds? Are we to kill any dogs except Rabid ones? Are we told to treat dogs and all animals with kindness?

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 08-22-2011 at 05:32 AM..
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Old 08-22-2011, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Default "Can Muslims own dogs?" continued

"Can Muslims own dogs?"

From the Ahadith collection by Muslim. This was compiled at a later date than Bukhari's collection. There does seem to be some variation in the wording of the narrators. I suspect this may have to do with dialectical differences. The Authenticity of these are well documented, however they may not be as reliable as Buhkari, in terms of being the exact words spoken by Muhammad(PBUH) however, the underlying meanings should be similar.

SAHIH MUSLIM:

Book 002, Number 0546:

Abu Huraira reported the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) to have said: When a dog licks a utensil belonging to any one of you, (the thing contained in it) should be thrown away and then (the utensil) should be washed seven times.

Book 002, Number 0547:

This hadith has been transmitted by another chain of transmitters in which there is no mention of" throwing away".

Book 002, Number 0548:

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When a dog drinks out of a vessel belonging to any one of you, he must wash it seven times.

Book 002, Number 0549:

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The purification of the utensil belonging to any one of you, after it is licked by a dog, lies in washing it seven times, using sand for the first time.

Book 002, Number 0550:

Hammam b. Munabbih reported: Of the a hadith narrated by Abu Huraira from Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), one is this: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The purification of the utensil belonging to one amongst you, after it is licked by a dog, lies in washing it seven times.

Book 002, Number 0551:

Ibn Mughaffal reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) ordered killing of the dogs, and then said: What about them, i. e. about other dogs? and then granted concession (to keep) the dog for hunting and the dog for (the security) of the herd, and said: When the dog licks the utensil, wash it seven times, and rub it with earth the eighth time.

Book 002, Number 0552:

A hadith like this has been narrated from Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters except for the fact that in the hadith transmitted by Yahya those words are:" He (the Holy Prophet) gave concession in the case of the dog for looking after the herd, for hunting and for watching the cultivated land," and there is no mention of this addition (i. e. concession in case of watching the cultivated lands) except in the hadith transmitted by Yahya.

Book 004, Number 1014:

Abu Juhaifa reported it on the authority of his father: I came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) in Mecca and he was (at that time) at al- Abtah in a red leather tent. And Bilal stepped out with ablution water for him. (And what was left out of that water) some of them got it (whereas others could not get it) and (those who got it) rubbed themselves with it. Then the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) stepped out with a red mantle on him and I was catching a glimpse of the whiteness of his shanks. The narrator said: He (the Holy Prophet) performed the ablution. and Bilal pronounced Adhan and I followed his mouth (as he turned) this side and that as he said on the right and the left:" Come to prayer, come to success." ' A spear was then fixed for him (on the ground). He stepped forward and said two rak'ahs of Zuhr, while there passed in front of him a donkey and a dog, and these were not checked. He then said two rak'ahs of the 'Asr prayer, and he then continued saying two rak'ahs till he came back to Medina.

Book 004, Number 1032:

Abu Dharr reported: The Messenger of 'Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When any one of you stands for prayer and there is a thing before him equal to the back of the saddle that covers him and in case there is not before him (a thing) equal to the back of the saddle, his prayer would be cut off by (passing of an) ass, woman, and black Dog. I said: O Abu Dharr, what feature is there in a black dog which distinguish it from the red dog and the yellow dog? He said: O, son of my brother, I asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as you are asking me, and he said: The black dog is a devil.

Book 004, Number 1033:

This hadith has been transmitted by Humaid b. Hilal on the authority of Yunus.

Book 004, Number 1034:

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: A woman, an ass and a dog disrupt the prayer, but something like the back of a saddle guards against that.

Book 004, Number 1038:

Masruq reported: It was mentioned before'A'isha that prayer is invalidated (in case of passing) of a dog, an ass and a woman (before the worshipper, when he is not screened). Upon this 'A'isha said: You likened us to the asses and the dogs. By Allah I saw the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) saying prayer while I lay on the bedstead interposing between him and the Qibla. When I felt the need, I did not like to wit to front (of the Holy Prophet) and perturb the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and quietly moved out from under its (i. e. of the bedstead) legs.

Book 004, Number 1039:

Al-Aswad reported that 'A'isha said: You have made us equal to the dogs and the asses, whereas I lay on the bedstead and the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) came there and stood in the middle of the bedstead and said prayer. I did not like to take off the quilt from me (in that state), so I moved away quietly from the front legs of the bedstead and thus came out of the quilt.

Book 007, Number 2717:

A'isha, the wife of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him). said: I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Four are the vicious (birds, beasts and reptiles) which should be killed in the state of Ihram or otherwise: kite (and vulture), crow, rat, and the voracious dog I (one of the narrators, 'Ubaid- ullah b. Miqsam) said to Qasim (the other narrator who beard it from 'A'isha): What about the snake? lie said: Let it be killed with disgrace.

Book 007, Number 2718:

A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported Allah'* Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: Five are the harmful things which should be killed in the state of Ihram or otherwise: snake, speckled crow. rat. voracious dog, and kite.

Book 007, Number 2719:

A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Five are the vicious beasts which should be killed even in the state of Ihram: scorpion, rat, kite, crow and voracious dog.

Book 007, Number 2720:

This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Hisham with the same chain of transmitters.

Book 007, Number 2721:

A'isha reported Allah's Mdssenger (may peace be upon him) having said this: Five are the vicious and harmful things which should be killed even within the precincts of Haram: rat, scorpion, crow. kite and voracious dog.


Book 007, Number 2723:

IA'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Five are the beasts 1618 harmful and vicious and these must be killed even within the precincts of the Ka'ba: crow, kite, voracio@s dog, kcorpion and rat.

Book 007, Number 2724:

Salim reported on the authority of his father (Allah be pleased with them) that the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Five are the (beasts) which if one kills them in the precincts of the Ka'ba or in the state of lhram entail no sin: rat, scorpion, crow, kite and voracious dog. In another version the words are:" as a Muhrim and in the state of lhram".

Book 007, Number 2725:

Hafsa, the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said this: There are five beasts, all of them are vicious and harmful and there is no sin for one who kills them (and these are): scorpion, crow, kite, rat and voracious dog.

Book 007, Number 2726:

Zaid b. Jubair reported: A person asked Ibn Umar which beast a Muhrim could kill. Thereupon he said: One of the wives of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) told me: He (the Holy Prophet) commanded to kill rat, scorpion, kite, voracious dog and crow.

Book 007, Number 2727:

Zaid b. Jubair reported: A person asked Ibn 'Umar which beast a Mubrim could kill, whereupon he said: One of the wives of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) told me: He (the Holy Prophet) commanded to kill voracious dcg, rat, scorpion, kite, crow, and snake (and this is allowed) likewise in prayer.

Book 007, Number 2728:

Ibn 'Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Five are the beasts for killing which there is no sin for the Muhrim: crow, kite, scorpiou, rat and voracious dog.

Book 007, Number 2729:

Ibn Juraij reported: I said to Nafi: What is that which you heard Ibn, Umar declaring permissible for a Mubrim to kill some of the beasts? Nafi, said to me that 'Abdullah had reported: I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Five are the beasts in killing which or their being killed, there is no sin: crow, kite, scorpion, rat and voracious dog.

Book 007, Number 2731:

'Abdullah b. Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported Allah's Messen- ger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Five (are the animals) which, it one kills them In the state of Ihram, entail no sin for one (who does it): scorpion, rat, voracious dog, crow and kite.

Book 010, Number 3803:

Aba Mas'ud al-Ansari (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) forbade the charging of price of the dog, and earnings of a prostitute and sweets offered to a kahin.

Book 010, Number 3804:

A hadith like this is reported on the authority of Abu Mas'ud through another chain of transmitters.

Book 010, Number 3805:

Rafi b. Khadij (Allah be pleased with him) reported: I heard Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: The worst earning is the earning of a prostitute, the price of a dog and the earning of a cupper.

Book 010, Number 3806:

Rafi b. Khadij reported Allah'& Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The price of a dog is evil, the earning of a prostitute is evil and the earning of a cupper is evil.

Book 010, Number 3807:

A hadith like this has been narrated on the authority of Rifi' b. Khadlj through another chain of transmitters.

Book 010, Number 3808:

Abu Zubair said: I asked Jabir about the price of a dog and a cat; he said: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) disapproved of that.

Book 010, Number 3809:

Ibn 'Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) giving command for killing dogs.

Book 010, Number 3810:

Ibn 'Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) ordered to kill dogs, and he sent (men) to the corners of Medina that they should be killed.

Book 010, Number 3811:

Abdullah (b. Umar) (Allah be pleased with them) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) ordered the killing of dogs and we would send (men) in Medina and its corners and we did not spare any dog that we did not kill, so much so that we killed the dog that accompanied the wet she-camel belonging to the people of the desert.

Book 010, Number 3812:

Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be, upon him) ordered the killing of dogs except the dog tamed for hunting, or watching of the herd of sheep or other domestic animals. It was said to Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with them) that Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) talks of (exception) about the dog for watching the field, whereupon he said: Since Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) possessed land.

Book 010, Number 3813:

Abu Zubair heard Jabir b. 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with him) saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) ordered us to kill dogs, and we carried out this order so much so that we also kill the dog coming with a woman from the desert. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) forbade their killing. He (the Holy Prophet further) said: It is your duty the jet-black (dog) having two spots (on the eyes), for it is a devil.

Book 010, Number 3814:

Ibn Mughaffal reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) ordered the killing of dogs and then said: what is the trouble with them (the people of Medina)? How dogs are nuisance to them (the citizens of Medina)? He then permitted keehing of dogs for hunting and (the protection of) herds. In the hadith transmitted on the authority of Yahya, he (the Holy Prophet) permitted the keeping of dogs for (the protection of) herds, for hunting and (the protection of) cultivated land.

Book 010, Number 3815:

Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who keeps a dog other than that meant for watching the herd or for hunting loses every day out of his deeds equal to two qirat.

Book 010, Number 3816:

Salim reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: He who kept a dog other than one meant for hunting or for watching the herd, lost two qirat of his reward every day.

Book 010, Number 3817:

Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying He who kept a dog other than one meant for hunting or for watching the herd lost out of his deeds (equal to) two qirat every day.

Book 010, Number 3818:

Salim b. 'Abdullah reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: He who kept a dog other than one meant for watching the herd or for hunting would lose every day two qirat of his good deeds. 'Abdullah and Abu Huraira also said: Or dog meant for watching the field.

Book 010, Number 3819:

Salim reported on the authority of his father (Allah be pleased with him) that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: He who kept a dog other than one meant for hunting or for the protection of the herd would lose two qirat of his deeds every day. Salim said: Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) used to say: Or the dog meant for watching the field, and he was the owner of the land.

Book 010, Number 3820:

Salim b. Abdullah reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Whosover amongst the owners of the house keeps a dog other than one meant for watching the herd or for hunting loses two qirat of his deeds every day.

Book 010, Number 3821:

Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with them) narrated Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who kept a dog ther than one meant for watching the fields or herds or hunting would lose one qirat every day out of his reward (with God).

Book 010, Number 3822:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who kept a dog which is neither meant for hunting nor for watching the anitmals nor for watching the fields would lose two qirat every day out of his reward; and there is no mention of the fields in the hadith transmitted by Abu Tahir.

Book 010, Number 3823:

Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who kept a dog except one meant for watching the herd, or for hunting or for watching the fields. he lost two qirat of reward every day. Zuhri said: The words of Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) were conveyed to Ibn Umar who said: May Allah have mercy upon Abu Huraira; he owned a field.

Book 010, Number 3824:

Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who kept a dog would lose out of his deeds equal to one qirat every day. except (one kept) for watching the field or herd.

Book 010, Number 3825:

A hadith like this has been transmitted on the authority of Abu Huraira.

Book 010, Number 3826:

This hadith has been reported on the authority of Yahya b. Abu Kathir with the same chain of transmitters.

Book 010, Number 3827:

Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who kept a dog, but not meant for hunting or watching the herd, would lose one qirat of reward every day.

Book 010, Number 3828:

Sufyan b. Abu Zuhair (he was a person belonging to the tribe of Shanu'a and was amongst the Conpanions of Allah's Messenger [may peace be upon him ) said: I heard Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who kept a dog (other than that) which is indispensable for watching the field or the animals would lose one qirat out of his deeds every day. As-Sa'ib b Yazid (one of the narrators) said: Did you hear it from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)? He said: Yes. by the Lord of this mosque.

Book 010, Number 3829:

This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Sufyan b. Abu Zuhair al-Shana'i.

Book 021, Number 4732:

'Adi b. Hatim reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, I set off trained dogs and they catch for me (the game) and I recite the came of Allah over it (I slaughter the game by reciting Bismillah-i-Allah-o-Akbar), whereupon he said: When you set off your trained dogs and you recited the name of Allah (while setting them off), then eat (the game). I said: Even if them (the trained dogs) kill that (the game)? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Even if these kill, but (on the condition) that no other dog, which you did not set off (along with your dogs), participates (in catching the game). I said to him: I throw Mi'rad, a heavy featherless blunt arrow, for hunting and killing (the game). Thereupon he said: When you throw Mi'rad, and it pierces, then eat, but if it falls flatly (and beats the game to death), then do not eat that.

Book 021, Number 4733:

'Adi b. Hatim reported: I asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) saying: We are a people who hunt with these (trained) dogs, then (what should we do)? Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: When you set of your trained dogs having recited the name of Allah, then eat what these (hounds) have caught for you, oven if it (the game) is killed, provided (the hunting dog) has not eaten (any part of the game). If it has eaten (the game), then you don't eat it as I fear that it might have caught for its own self. And do not eat in case other dogs have joined your trained dogs.

Book 021, Number 4734:

'Adi b. Hatim reported that he asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) about (hunting) with the help of an arrow having a stub end. He said: If it strikes (the game) with its point, then eat, but if it strikes flatly and it dies, that is Waqidh (beaten into death), do not eat that. I asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) about (hunting with the help of) dogs, whereupon he said. When you send your dog (for hunting) reciting the name of Allah, then eat (the game), but if some part of it is eaten (by the dogs, then do not eat that, for it (your dog) has caught that (the-game) for itself. I (again) said: If I find along with my dog another dog, and do not know which of (the dogs) has caught (the game). then (what should I do)? Thereupon he ('Allah's Messenger) said: Then don't eat that, for you recited the name of Allah on your dog and not on the other one.

Book 021, Number 4735:

Adi b. Hatim reported: I asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) about Mi'rad (i. e. hunting with the help of arrow having a stub end, and he stated the same (as we find in the previous hadith).

Book 021, Number 4736:

This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of 'Adi b. Hatim with a slight variation of words.

Book 021, Number 4737:

'Adi b. Hatim reported: I asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) about hunting the game with the help of Mi'rad, whereupon he said: If it strikes (the game) with its point, then eat it, but if it strikes flat, that is (the game is) beaten (into death), (then do not eat that) 'Adi further said: I asked him about hunting with the help of a dog, whereupon he said: If that (the dog) catches it (the game) for you and does not eat out of that, then you eat (the game) for Dhakat (slaughtering) of that is its being caught by it (by the dog). But if you find another dog besides it, and you fear that that dog (the second one) had caught it (the game) along with that (your dog) and killed it. then don't eat; for you recited the name of Allah on your dog and did not recite that on the other one (which joined your dog incidentally).

Book 021, Number 4738:

This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Zakariya b. Abu Za'ida with the same chain of transmitters.

Book 021, Number 4739:

Sha'bi reported: I heard Adi b. Hatim say-and he was our neighbour, and our partner and co worker at Nahrain-that he asked Allah's Apostle (may peace he upon him) saying: I let off my dog and find another dog along with my dog and that (any one of them) catches the (game), but I do not know which one had caught it, whereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Then don't eat that, for you recited the name of Allah while letting off your dog and did not recite on the other.

Book 021, Number 4740:

This hadith has been narrated oif the authority of 'Adi b. Hatim through another chain of transmitters.

Book 021, Number 4741:

Adi b. Hatim reported: Allah's Messenger (way peace be upon him) said to me: When you let off your dog, recite the name of Allah, and if it catches (game for you) and you find it alive, then slaughter it; if you find it killed and that (your dog) has eaten nothing out of that, (even then) you may eat it; but if you find along with your dog another dog, and (the game an) dead, then don't eat, for you do not know which of the two has killed it. And if you shoot your arrow, recite the name of Allah, but if it (game) goes out of your sight for a day and you do not find on that but the mark of your arrow, then eat that it you so like, but if you find it drowned in water, then don't eat that.

Book 021, Number 4743:

Abu Tha'laba al-Khushani reported: I came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, we are in the land of the People of the Book, (so) we eat in their utensils, and (live) in a hunting region. where I hunt with, the help of my bow, and hunt with my trained dog, or with my dog which is not trained. So inform me what is lawful (Halal) for us out of that. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Regarding what you have mentioned of the fact that you live in the land belonging to the People of the Book and so you eat in their utensils, but if you can get utensils other than theirs, then don't eat in them; but if you do not find any, then wash them and eat in them. And regarding what you have mentioned about (your living) in a hunting region, what you hunt, (strike) with the help of your bow, recite the name of Allah (while shooting an arrow) and then eat; and what you catch with the help of your trained dog, recite the name of Allah (while letting oil) the dog and then eat it, and what you get with the help of your untrained dog, (if you find it alive) and slaughter it (according to the law of the Shari'ah), eat it.

Book 021, Number 4747:

This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abu Tha'laba al- Khushani with a slight variation of (words): He (the Holy Prophet) said in regard to the game killed by (a trained) dog: Eat after three days provided it has not gone rotten.

Book 024, Number 5246:

A'isha reported that Gabriel (peace be upon him) made a promise with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to come at a definite hour; that hour came but he did not visit him. And there was in his hand (in the hand of Allah's Apostle) a staff. He threw it from his hand and said: Never has Allah or His messengers (angels) ever broken their promise. Then he cast a glance (and by chance) found a puppy under his cot and said: 'A'isha, when did this dog enter here? She said: BY Allah, I don't know He then commanded and it was turned out. Then Gabriel came and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: You promised me and I waited for you. but you did not come, whereupon he said: It was the dog in your house which prevented me (to come), for we (angels) do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture.

Book 024, Number 5247:

This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Abu Hazim with the same chain of transmitters that Gabriel had promised Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) that he would come; the rest of the hadith is the same, but it is not so lengthy as the other one.

Book 024, Number 5248:

Maimuna reported that one morning Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was silent with grief. Maimuna said: Allah's Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Gabriel had promised me that he would meet me tonight, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) spent the day in this sad (mood). Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He commanded and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it at that place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him: you promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said: Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. Then on that very morning he commanded the killing of the dogs until he announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog meant for the protection of extensive fields (or big gardens).

Book 024, Number 5249:

Abu Talha reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) having said: Angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture.

Book 024, Number 5250:

Abu Talha reported: I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Angels do not enter the house in which there is a dog or a statue.

Book 024, Number 5251:

This hadith has been reported on the authority of Zuhri with the same chain of transmitters.

Book 024, Number 5254:

Abu Talha Ansari reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Angels do not enter the house in which there is a picture or portraits. I came to 'A'isha and said to her: This is a news that I have received that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) had said: Angels do not enter the house in which there is a picture or a dog, (and further added) whether she had heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) making a mention of it. She said: No (I did not hear this myself), but I narrate to you what I saw him doing. I bear testimony to the fact that he (the Holy Prophet) set out for an expedition. I took a carpet and screened the door with it. When he (the Holy Prophet) came back he saw that carpet and I perceived signs of disapproval on his face. He pulled it until it was torn or it was cut (into pieces) and he said: God has not commanded us to clothe stones and clay. We cut it (the curtain) and prepared two pillowa out of it by stuffing them with the fibre of date-palms and he (the Holy Prophet) did not find fault with it.

Book 024, Number 5277:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Angels do not accompany the travellers who have with them a dog and a bell.

Book 026, Number 5577:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as sayings: A person suffered from intense thirst while on a journey, when he found a well. He climbed down into it and drank (water) and then came out and saw a dog lolling its tongue on account of thirst and eating the moistened earth. The person said: This dog has suffered from thirst as I had suffered from it. He climbed down into the well, filled his shoe with water, then caught it in his mouth until he climbed up and made the dog drink it. So Allah appreciated this act of his and pardoned him. Then (the Companions around him) said: Allah's Messenger, is there for us a reward even for (serving) such animals? He said: Yes, there is a reward for service to every living animal.

Book 026, Number 5578:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may pace be upon him) as saying: A prostitute saw a dog moving around a well on a hot day and hanging out its tongue because of thirst. She drew water for it in her shoe and she was pardoned (for this act of hers).

Book 026, Number 5579:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There was a dog moving around a well whom thirst would have killed. Suddenly a prostitute from the prostitutes of Bani Isra'il happened to see it and she drew water in her shoe and made it drink, and she was pardoned because of this.



Although there is some difference in terminology, these do support what Bukhari collected. I can not find anything that would prohibit the ownership of dogs. although they seem to suggest it may be Mahkoof (discouraged) to own one as a pet. But, that is just my opinion of what Muslim collected and should not be taken as Tafsir (unquestionable interpretation).

Over all I see dogs are permitted if they serve a purpose, sanitation must be upkept, it is forbidden to mistreat dogs and the only ones it is permissible to kill are those that pose a danger. it is forbidden to earn money by selling dogs.--(Most Scholars seem to see this as making a profit, but it is permissible to charge the expense of raising them)
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:28 AM
 
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Wood,
To voluntarily subject oneself to such detailed proscriptions ^^^^about even such minor details of life as owning a dog is absurd to me. Forcing others to submit to such nonsense would be an abomination of major proportions . . . no matter how noble or sincere the intent of those demanding the subjugation. Islam is truly a barbaric and culturally anachronistic deen.
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Default "Can Muslims own dogs?" continued

I just noticed this is getting to be a bit redundant. I will skip the Ahadith relating to dogs in Dawud and Maliki as they are essentially the same. Moving on to what the Qur'an says:

I did make an error the Qur'an only mentions dogs in 2 places. the story of the woman and the thirsty dog is in the Ahadith. I mentioned it in Sahih Muslim

AL-KHAF (The Cave)

018.018
YUSUFALI: Thou wouldst have deemed them awake, whilst they were asleep, and We turned them on their right and on their left sides: their dog stretching forth his two fore-legs on the threshold: if thou hadst come up on to them, thou wouldst have certainly turned back from them in flight, and wouldst certainly have been filled with terror of them.

018.022
YUSUFALI: (Some) say they were three, the dog being the fourth among them; (others) say they were five, the dog being the sixth,- doubtfully guessing at the unknown; (yet others) say they were seven, the dog being the eighth. Say thou: "My Lord knoweth best their number; It is but few that know their (real case)." Enter not, therefore, into controversies concerning them, except on a matter that is clear, nor consult any of them about (the affair of) the Sleepers. 018.022

Here it is apparent the people of the cave had a dog, but there is no mention that it was wrong for them to do so.
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Old 08-22-2011, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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What are hadith?


The ahadith (plural of hadith) are the witnessed words and acts of Muhammad(swt). The Ahadith tell us how Muhammad(PBUH) interpreted the Qur'an and how he lived it. You can call it preserved teaching of Islam by Muhammad(swt). The actual number of Ahadith is probably in the millions, but only 4 collection by the first 4 Imams, have been verified to be authenticate. While the majority of Muslims follow only the first 4 compilations, there are those who follow 12, most notably one sect of the Shi'i, nicknamed twelvers.

There are some Muslims who feel the Ahadith are unnecessary and we have no obligation to follow the Ahadith, they are generally called Quarani, indicating Qur'an only believers. but it is from the ahadith we get our 5 pillars of Faith and the fundamentals of belief.

Each hadith carries with it a level of authenticity, which indicates how certain the named narrator was the actual witness or if he is repeating what was heard from another party. The compilations of Bukhari are considered to be the most authenticate as he spoke he was the most meticulous and the most strict about what establishes authenticity. In addition each hadith has a level of reliability, this is determined by the number of witnesses and how well the narrations of the witnesses agree with each other. to carry the highest level there has to be a minimum of 4 witnesses and they all say the same thing word for word. for this reason when quoting any hadith it is essential to give, at a minimum, the name of the compiler, the number of the book, the hadith number and the name of the narrator.

the study of ahadith is a life long process, in just the 4 most reliable compilations there are many thousands of Ahadith. As people do hear and see things different you will notice differences among witnesses of the same event, greater differences in the less reliable and down to no differences in those with the highest level of reliability.
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Old 08-22-2011, 03:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Here we can get into a long debate over what is self protection and what is aggression. In Islam the only way war can be declared is for self protection.

Who is the aggressor and who is acting out of self protection? I guess that depends on what side of the street you are walking on. the sad part in all wars it is usually the innocent that suffer the most.

Bin Laden saw it as Muslims being attacked and killed by America. America saw 9/11 as an attack by Islam and America is the one acting out of self protection.

The people living in Iraq and Afghanistan only know that for the past 10+ years the counties have been devastated by American bombs.

Where and what is the truth? Who is the aggressor, it seems all we know for certain is who is suffering.
I know we're on to dogs, but...

I'd like to be a fly on the wall in your mosque if Al Qaeda. jihad, war against America is discussed.

Seems you won't say it directly, but you lean toward the U.S. is the aggressor and what many consider terrorism, you see reasonable people thinking of as justified self-protection.

Again, do you know of Specific examples in the Quran or Ahadith that can be used to evaluate the views of Osama bin Laden ?
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Old 08-22-2011, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by jazzarama View Post
I know we're on to dogs, but...

I'd like to be a fly on the wall in your mosque if Al Qaeda. jihad, war against America is discussed.

Seems you won't say it directly, but you lean toward the U.S. is the aggressor and what many consider terrorism, you see reasonable people thinking of as justified self-protection.

Again, do you know of Specific examples in the Quran or Ahadith that can be used to evaluate the views of Osama bin Laden ?
I am actual an ultra extreme pacifist. I am opposed to all wars and any form of aggression. But having lived in war zones I can understand why the general Mideast populace sees America as being the aggressor, and believe the Muslims are acting out of self defense

Well this gives a good chance to start discussing those. As for bin Laden, I can find nothing in the Qur'an that supports what is alledged to have done. But there is so much misinformation about bin Laden it is difficult to find out what he has or has not done. Unless things have changed he was never charged with involvement in 9/11, the accusations against him have to do with the bombing of the US embassy in(? forgot what country) However, the Qur'an is very clear about forbidding suicide for any reason, killing innocents, killing non-combatants etc.

There are a large number of Muslims who do not believe Bin Laden was even Muslim. Lots of conspiracy theories that he was actually an undercover CIA agent. One picture of him has cast doubt as to him being Muslim as in the picture he was wearing a gold ring. It is forbidden for a Muslim male to wear any gold or gold colored jewelry.
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am actual an ultra extreme pacifist. I am opposed to all wars and any form of aggression. But having lived in war zones I can understand why the general Mideast populace sees America as being the aggressor, and believe the Muslims are acting out of self defense
Ty. Putting bin Laden aside, I'll try again.

Can you give specific parts of the Quran itself or Ahadith that give examples of aggression or other behaviors used by Islam to justify war in the name of Allah ?
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