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Old 08-22-2011, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzarama View Post
Ty. Putting bin Laden aside, I'll try again.

Can you give specific parts of the Quran itself or Ahadith that give examples of aggression or other behaviors used by Islam to justify war in the name of Allah ?
There are none. the only time war is justified is if attacked. We are forbidden to be aggressors.

Jihad is of two types, the greater and the lesser. the greater is the inner battle we fight within ourselves to be pious and overcome that which leads us astray, Fitnah (Temptations and desires to indulge ourselves)

the lesser Jihad is the Holy war in the name of Allah. that is only justified to protect Islam when attacted, However it is to be called by a Caliph and there will be no caliph until the return of Jesus(as) and the birth of the Mehdi.

There are about 100 Ayyats telling us to not be agressors or transgressors. a Few samples

002.190
YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors

078.022
YUSUFALI: For the transgressors a place of destination:
078.023
YUSUFALI: They will dwell therein for ages.
078.024
YUSUFALI: Nothing cool shall they taste therein, nor any drink,
078.025
YUSUFALI: Save a boiling fluid and a fluid, dark, murky, intensely cold,
078.026
YUSUFALI: A fitting recompense (for them).
078.027
YUSUFALI: For that they used not to fear any account (for their deeds),


004.090
YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
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Old 08-22-2011, 05:06 PM
 
40,190 posts, read 26,820,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are none. the only time war is justified is if attacked. We are forbidden to be aggressors.
This misrepresents the truth since occupation is considered attack and justifies Dar al Harb. Israel's existence provides that excuse. You are starting to equivocate and to my mind deliberately mislead those who are sincerely seeking information about Islam. The ahadith contain many instructions for Dar al Harb, Wood.
Quote:
Jihad is of two types, the greater and the lesser. the greater is the inner battle we fight within ourselves to be pious and overcome that which leads us astray, Fitnah (Temptations and desires to indulge ourselves)

the lesser Jihad is the Holy war in the name of Allah. that is only justified to protect Islam when attacted, However it is to be called by a Caliph and there will be no caliph until the return of Jesus(as) and the birth of the Mehdi.
This is basically true about Jihad . . . the Caliph restriction is a disingenuous ruse. Under Dar al Harb (occupation) EVERY Musilm is obligated to participate (or support in some way) Jihad. There is even an annual "quota" to be met. Every Muslim gets credit with Allah for any and all acts of the Mujihadin (Jihadis). Why are you pretending these things do not exist in the ahadith, Wood? I am starting to lose faith in your integrity.
Quote:
There are about 100 Ayyats telling us to not be agressors or transgressors.
There are an equal number . . . if not more sanctioning deceit and aggression in Dar al Harb.
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Old 08-22-2011, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This misrepresents the truth since occupation is considered attack and justifies Dar al Harb. Israel's existence provides that excuse. You are starting to equivocate and to my mind deliberately mislead those who are sincerely seeking information about Islam. The ahadith contain many instructions for Dar al Harb, Wood.This is basically true about Jihad . . . the Caliph restriction is a disingenuous ruse. Under Dar al Harb (occupation) EVERY Musilm is obligated to participate (or support in some way) Jihad. There is even an annual "quota" to be met. Every Muslim gets credit with Allah for any and all acts of the Mujihadin (Jihadis). Why are you pretending these things do not exist in the ahadith, Wood? I am starting to lose faith in your integrity.
There are an equal number . . . if not more sanctioning deceit and aggression in Dar al Harb.
You are going to get mixed opinions among us over if Palestine/Israel justifies Dar al Harb. I don't se it as Justifying Dar al Harb as I do not see it as an attack on Islam, I see as an attack against Palestine. It is very much a complex issue. You also have division between Gaza and The West Bank, You are not going to find anything except vocal support for Gaza from Much of the Muslim world. so far the only nations that have actively supported Gaza are Egypt and Iran. Turkey even has diplomatic and trade agreements with Israel.

I will have to get back with you in regards to the Hadith.I am trying to find the ones that contain what you posted regarding them. I suspect they are going to be related to the "Battle of Badr" but I am not certain.
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Old 08-22-2011, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
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Default Continuation

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This misrepresents the truth since occupation is considered attack and justifies Dar al Harb. Israel's existence provides that excuse. You are starting to equivocate and to my mind deliberately mislead those who are sincerely seeking information about Islam.
Decided to tackle this serving one mouthful at a time. It is a rather large slice of pie.

I believe you are Mistaken about Dar al Harb. I felt it best to find what I was looking for from a non-Islamic source:

Quote:
Gale Encyclopedia of the Mideast & N. Africa:
Dar al-Islam
Home > Library > History, Politics & Society > Mideast & N. Africa Encyclopedia

An abode, country, territory, or land where Islamic sovereignty prevails.

In Dar al-Islam, the citizenry abide by the ordinances, rules, edicts, and assembly of Islam. The Muslim state guarantees the safety of life, property, and religious status (only if the religion is not idol-atrous) of minorities (ahl al-dhimma) provided they have submitted to Muslim control.

Dar al-Harb (the abode of war) provides the contrast to Dar al-Islam. Shariʿa (Islamic) law divides the world into these two abodes. Dar al-Harb denotes territory that is not governed by the assembly of Islam, and is directly contiguous to the abode of Islam. Warfare (jihad) can be invoked in order to convert the abode of war into the abode of Islam, or to rescue the bordering abode. Theoretically, an abode of war can extend ad infinitum. Muslim states, in order to avoid conditions requiring constant jihad, yield to the decision of legal experts (ulama), who, based on certain criteria, accept or reject the notion that an area has converted from, or needs to be reconfigured into, Dar al-Islam. These are as follows: (1) the edicts of unbelievers have gained ascendancy; (2) unprotected Muslims and peoples of the book must be rescued; (3) territorial proximity to unbelievers has become repugnant.

Of the above conditions, the first is probably the most important since even if a single edict of Islam is observed, a territory cannot be deemed Dar al-Harb. Further, jihad can be invoked for the sole purpose of turning Dar al-Harb into Dar al-Islam - in other words, to allow for the prevalence of Islamic edicts and the protection of Muslims.

Read more: Dar al-Islam: Definition from Answers.com
SOURCE

Palestine can not be considered Dar al-Harb as most if not all of the edicts of Islam are observed. the Palestinians are not restricted from prayers, or any other edicts, except I do not believe they can go on Hajj and get back into the country. If the Ulama found that they can not observe even one edict the Ulama could declare it Dar al_Harb and Jihad could be invoked.

I apologize. I thought that only a Caliph could declare Jihad. but it seems the Ulama also can.
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:01 PM
 
40,190 posts, read 26,820,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Decided to tackle this serving one mouthful at a time. It is a rather large slice of pie.

I believe you are Mistaken about Dar al Harb. I felt it best to find what I was looking for from a non-Islamic source:

Dar al-Harb (the abode of war) provides the contrast to Dar al-Islam. Shariʿa (Islamic) law divides the world into these two abodes. Dar al-Harb denotes territory that is not governed by the assembly of Islam, and is directly contiguous to the abode of Islam. Warfare (jihad) can be invoked in order to convert the abode of war into the abode of Islam, or to rescue the bordering abode. Theoretically, an abode of war can extend ad infinitum. Muslim states, in order to avoid conditions requiring constant jihad, yield to the decision of legal experts (ulama), who, based on certain criteria, accept or reject the notion that an area has converted from, or needs to be reconfigured into, Dar al-Islam. These are as follows: (1) the edicts of unbelievers have gained ascendancy; (2) unprotected Muslims and peoples of the book must be rescued; (3) territorial proximity to unbelievers has become repugnant.

SOURCE

Palestine can not be considered Dar al-Harb as most if not all of the edicts of Islam are observed. the Palestinians are not restricted from prayers, or any other edicts, except I do not believe they can go on Hajj and get back into the country. If the Ulama found that they can not observe even one edict the Ulama could declare it Dar al_Harb and Jihad could be invoked.

I apologize. I thought that only a Caliph could declare Jihad. but it seems the Ulama also can.
I retain sufficient trust in your integrity to accept the mistake about the Caliphate being needed. But I am not mistaken about Dar al Harb . . . and you should stick to al Bukhari as the more authoritative source . . . especially about the ahadith. I bolded pertinent sections that apply to Israel's existence. If you search . . . I believe you will find that one or more Ulamas have already declared Dar al Harb over Israel.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 08-22-2011 at 08:22 PM..
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I retain sufficient trust in your integrity to accept the mistake about the Caliphate being needed. But I am not mistaken about Dar al Harb . . . and you should stick to al Burkhari as the more authoritative source . . . especially about the ahadith. I bolded pertinent sections that apply to Israel's existence. If you search . . . I believe you will find that one or more Ulamas have already declared Dar al Harb over Israel.
No problem. Always glad to have you disagree. I appreciate sincere disagreement and do not view it as a personal attack.

Now you are being mean and going to make an old man work. Actually Bukhari is the most authorative. However Muslim.Dawud and Timidi have accertable levels of authenticity, but they do not have the same level of reliability as Bukhari, as they did not find a sufficient number of narrations to firmly establish that the narration is the EXACT word for word quote as spoken by Muhammad. Also they contain some narrations that Bukhari did not add to his compilation.

I'm still looking through Bukhari and Inshalla(God willing) will have a full reply before long.
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Old 08-22-2011, 10:36 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,753,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Wood,
To voluntarily subject oneself to such detailed proscriptions ^^^^about even such minor details of life as owning a dog is absurd to me. Forcing others to submit to such nonsense would be an abomination of major proportions . . . no matter how noble or sincere the intent of those demanding the subjugation. Islam is truly a barbaric and culturally anachronistic deen.
That's probably because you don't care about God's guidance and instead care more about your own laziness and desires. Forcing others to mention God on coins and pledges is just as nonsense and a pagan-like abomination. Sometimes you people should stop being such hypocrites.
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Old 08-23-2011, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I retain sufficient trust in your integrity to accept the mistake about the Caliphate being needed. But I am not mistaken about Dar al Harb . . . and you should stick to al Bukhari as the more authoritative source . . . especially about the ahadith. I bolded pertinent sections that apply to Israel's existence. If you search . . . I believe you will find that one or more Ulamas have already declared Dar al Harb over Israel.

However if youlook further you will notice that there are 3 conditions that must be met before Dar al-Harb can be declared. In the first condition even the Muslims are still permitted to follow even one edict of Islam, Dar al-Harb can not be declared. The Palestinians can still practice. Legally the Ulama can not declare Dar al-Harb
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Old 08-26-2011, 12:18 PM
 
Location: USA
19,911 posts, read 14,756,232 times
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I'm looking for a predominately Islamic Nation that is a more desirable to live in than most Western or even Eastern countries before I am sold on Islam.

If the majority Muslim nations are much less than desirable to live in that a secular country why would a non-believer want to give up our standard of living?
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Old 08-26-2011, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
I'm looking for a predominately Islamic Nation that is a more desirable to live in than most Western or even Eastern countries before I am sold on Islam.

If the majority Muslim nations are much less than desirable to live in that a secular country why would a non-believer want to give up our standard of living?
I find that life in any country is what you make it be. By paradox, the only times I have lived in a predominately Muslim country was while I was a Christian. Now that I am Muslim I am living in a predominately Christian Nation.

I have not had any major issues in either.

If I were to choose to live in a predominately Muslim country, the reason would be for the ease of being able to live as a Muslim. The difficulty a Muslim faces in the USA are

Very few Islamic Scholars
Lack of Qualified Imams
Shortage of Mosques
In many ares Halal food is hard to find and very expensive

The countries I find most Islamic of the predominately Muslim nations are:

Indonesia
Malaysia
Comoros

The most secular I find to be:

Turkey
Egypt
Dubai
Pakistan (Outside the SWAT region)

For myself the most desirable country would be Malaysia. But that is personal choice.
.
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