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Old 09-13-2012, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Hello Woodrow. The last time I spoke with you, I was rather rude, because I know of Taqqiya, and didn't trust what you were saying. I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt today, because I do want to understand. I just posted this to a thread, only to find that thread closed. I would like to post is here for your comment. From a brief look, it appears to me that you are Sunni, is that correct?
No Problem. I did not take any offense. I even agree with you that Taqqiya can give a very negative view of Islam. It is primarily a tool used by Shi'ites. Most Sunni agree it should not be used and the Hanafi Madhab sternly forbids it.

I Follow the Hanafi Madhab which is one of the 4 accepted paths of Sunni. Wahhabi/Salafi is a recent movement that began in the 19th century and is not considered a valid Madhap by nearly all Muslims. although it originally pretty died out by the start of the 19th century being followed mostly by some members of the al-Saud family. However after 9/11 it made a tremendous growth and is very common in Saudi, Pakistan, Egypt and a few other Mideastern nations.



Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Not all muslims are the same, it's complicated with many different factions. The basics are Shi'ites and Sunni's. Once you understand the difference between those two, you are way ahead of most ignorant Americans. I am working on this as we speak, but I can tell you this much. Sunni extremists believe they should honor the Quran by staying in the 16th century, no schools, no false idols. Sunni Islam is closely tied to Arab culture. Wahhabis are Sunni's. Sunni's believe secular, tolerant muslims, such as Shi'ites are not real muslims and can be killed along with infidels.
Sunni's far outnumber Shi'ites. Shi'ites are Syria and Iran.
You are accuratly describing wahhabi'ism most of us Sunni do not consider it to be a legitimate Madhab. Virtually ever Sunni Muslim in the Americas follow the Hanafi Madhab which is very different from the Wahhabbi even though we are both Sunni.

The Shi'a are a different sect and most follow either the Jafa'ari or Ziyyad Madhab. The laws of Iran are based upon the Jafa'ari Madhab.


Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
If I've over simplified that, I would welcome clarification.
You did a presentable presentation. You seem to have a better understanding of Islam than most non-Muslims.

You may want to learn more about the different Madhabs.
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,859,152 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
No Problem. I did not take any offense. I even agree with you that Taqqiya can give a very negative view of Islam. It is primarily a tool used by Shi'ites. Most Sunni agree it should not be used and the Hanafi Madhab sternly forbids it.

I Follow the Hanafi Madhab which is one of the 4 accepted paths of Sunni. Wahhabi/Salafi is a recent movement that began in the 19th century and is not considered a valid Madhap by nearly all Muslims. although it originally pretty died out by the start of the 19th century being followed mostly by some members of the al-Saud family. However after 9/11 it made a tremendous growth and is very common in Saudi, Pakistan, Egypt and a few other Mideastern nations.





You are accuratly describing wahhabi'ism most of us Sunni do not consider it to be a legitimate Madhab. Virtually ever Sunni Muslim in the Americas follow the Hanafi Madhab which is very different from the Wahhabbi even though we are both Sunni.

The Shi'a are a different sect and most follow either the Jafa'ari or Ziyyad Madhab. The laws of Iran are based upon the Jafa'ari Madhab.




You did a presentable presentation. You seem to have a better understanding of Islam than most non-Muslims.

You may want to learn more about the different Madhabs.
thank you. I will learn about Madhabs.
What country are you associated with? I know you are in Canada now, but which ME country.
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Old 09-13-2012, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,859,152 times
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Woodrow, I have tried to read several attempts to explain the Madhabs, this is very difficult for a simple American schooled in english to comprehend. I ask myself and I ask you, why I have to know this? Is it not enough to know Sunni from Shi'ite?
Are the Madhabs about jurisprudence, meaning law?
Give me an easier study. How about my learning Hannafi then Jafa'ari?
I'll give you this, to know Islam and to have a command of the english language, as you do, takes a great deal of intelligence. My hats off to you sir, meaning, that is quite an accomplishment.
When you meet a fellow muslim, do you ask what school of Islam he follows?
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:06 AM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,859,152 times
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Now I feel I'm getting somewhere. I found what I believe to be a good source. Here's a portion of the article re: Sunni/Shia and Hafari/Jafar ari.
For those learning along with me, the Figh's refers to Canonical schools of Islam. Canons are conforming to general rule or accepted procedure.
Quote:
The Ja'fari [Hafari] fiqh of the Imami Shias is in most cases indistinguishable from one or more of the four Sunni madhahib, except that "Muta'h" or temporary marriage is considered lawful by the Fiqh Jafari, whereas it is prohibited in all the Sunni schools. But the Shia are still viewed with great caution by the Ulema of the Sunni world. Although Sunni and Shi'a Muslims are historically ambivalent, this traditional enmity was dampened in Central Asia due to shared resistance to Russian and Soviet rule. Indeed, both Sunni and Shi'a delegations to the 1905 Third Congress of Muslims in Russia declared Ja'farite Shi'ism as a fifth legal school, equivalent to the Hanafi, Maliki, Hanbali, and Shafi'i madrasehs.


Shi'as do not believe in predestination. They accept the teachings of the Mu'tazilities, a group of Sunni scholars who were later declared heretical. The Mu'tazilities believed that God cannot be responsible for evil, and therefore, humans must have freewill and be independent of God's authority in this life. A further belief of Shia Muslims concerns divine justice and the individual's responsibility for his acts, which are judged by a just God. This contrasts with the Sunni view that God's creation of man allows minimal possibility for the exercise of free will.
Two distinctive and frequently misunderstood Shia practices are mutah, temporary marriage, and taqiyah, religious dissimulation.
Shiia Islam


Remember that Iran and Syria are Shia, most of the Middle East is Sunni, and President Maliki of Iraq is also Shia or Shi'ite. Below is an article that the VP (a Sunni) is afraid to go back to Iraq, because a court just sentenced him to death by hanging. It also says,

Quote:
Along with the political standoff has come a slight uptick in violence, mostly by Sunni insurgents against Shias. According to U.N. statistics, more Iraqis died from attacks in the first six months of 2012 than in the same period in 2011. It's nowhere near the level of the bloody years of 2006 and 2007, but the trend is not moving in the right direction.
Iraqi VP Death Sentence Hints at Wider Sunni-Shia Conflict | PBS NewsHour

I don't mean to bogart your thread. I just think it's important that we understand the differences, for a better understanding of what is happening in the Middle East. I also believe the U.S. and western coalitions are using Sunni extremists against the Shi'ites. The Shi'ites are attempting to form their own coalition to fight back. The west is arming and training the Sunni to do our fighting for us. That's the way I see it.

Last edited by claudhopper; 09-14-2012 at 01:18 AM..
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:08 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
thank you. I will learn about Madhabs.
What country are you associated with? I know you are in Canada now, but which ME country.
like nearly 90% of Muslims I have no connection with any ME country. I am of Lithuanian Descent born and Raised in Connecticut, USA. Although I speak a lot of Canada. I live in the USA near Canada in North Dakota.
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:16 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Woodrow, I have tried to read several attempts to explain the Madhabs, this is very difficult for a simple American schooled in english to comprehend. I ask myself and I ask you, why I have to know this? Is it not enough to know Sunni from Shi'ite?
Are the Madhabs about jurisprudence, meaning law?
Give me an easier study. How about my learning Hannafi then Jafa'ari?
I'll give you this, to know Islam and to have a command of the english language, as you do, takes a great deal of intelligence. My hats off to you sir, meaning, that is quite an accomplishment.
When you meet a fellow muslim, do you ask what school of Islam he follows?

I should have some command of english. Been speaking it all my life and even minored in Journalism during my Undergrad college years.

typically the question of madhabs seldom comes up among Muslims. A person usually follows the madhab of the community they live in.
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Old 09-14-2012, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Now I feel I'm getting somewhere. I found what I believe to be a good source. Here's a portion of the article re: Sunni/Shia and Hafari/Jafar ari.
For those learning along with me, the Figh's refers to Canonical schools of Islam. Canons are conforming to general rule or accepted procedure.
Shiia Islam


Remember that Iran and Syria are Shia, most of the Middle East is Sunni, and President Maliki of Iraq is also Shia or Shi'ite. Below is an article that the VP (a Sunni) is afraid to go back to Iraq, because a court just sentenced him to death by hanging. It also says,

Iraqi VP Death Sentence Hints at Wider Sunni-Shia Conflict | PBS NewsHour

I don't mean to bogart your thread. I just think it's important that we understand the differences, for a better understanding of what is happening in the Middle East. I also believe the U.S. and western coalitions are using Sunni extremists against the Shi'ites. The Shi'ites are attempting to form their own coalition to fight back. The west is arming and training the Sunni to do our fighting for us. That's the way I see it.
Many Muslims are unaware of following any Madhab. Some, probably many, do not even realize they follow one. Some Muslims do not follow a madhab. The Sufi are a good example of that, however some of us consider Sufi'ism to be a madhab in itself and at one time Sufi'ism was a legitimate Madhab recognized as being Sunni. The separation came when the Sufi began venerating Saints. When I first accepted Islam I followed the Sufi path. I still have strong love of Sufi but I see the venerating of Saints as sinful and very close to being Shirk.

I agree it is important to know the differences between the different Madhabs. Probably just as important for non-Muslims who interact with Muslims or those who have concerns about sharia law. Although the civil laws in all the Madhabs are the same there is much difference in the criminal laws. all agree as to what is a crime but there are differences in which are to be punished by humans. Among sunnis the biggest differences are between Hanafi and Hanbli criminal codes. the Hanafi stress leniency and seek reasons to avoid the use of extreme earthly punishments. The Hanbli seem to seek reason to use the maximum punishments permitted.

The Wahhabi/Salafi while not considered a valid Madhab by most Sunni are what most westerners see as Sharia.

I use the terms Salafi and Wahhabi interchangeably as both come from the teachings of Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab

Yes the US is arming and training the Sunni Minority in Iraq to fight the Shi'a majority. as it is quite certain if Iraq becomes fully Shi'a it will become a State of Iran. We placed Saddam into power for the purpose of keeping Iraq from supporting Iran. Saddam used the power to become a dictator. the rest is history.

The Fiqh-ul-Sunnah does come close to being what Christians consider Canonical Law. It is how the original companions of Muhammad(PBUH) followed Islam.

In Islam the concept of rules carries a wide spectrum of Responsibility.

Figh is an obligation and must be done. Sunnah is encourged to be done but there is no sin in not doing so. Halal is anything that is permitted. Makoof is discouraged from being done, but there is no Sin in doing it. Haram is anything that is forbidden to do.
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,859,152 times
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So how do you reconcile the laws of your faith, with following the laws by our courts? You cannot have your own courts in America. We follow the Constitution and precedent, not religious law and certainly not the Quran.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
So how do you reconcile the laws of your faith, with following the laws by our courts? You cannot have your own courts in America. We follow the Constitution and precedent, not religious law and certainly not the Quran.
I have no problem with the criminal Laws. they are very much in line with the Hanafi criminal laws. The criminal laws have no effect on preventing me from following Islam. Also if a Muslim lives in a non-Muslim nation they are obligated to follow the laws of the nation. If the laws prevent a Muslim from following Islam they should leave the Nation if possible.

The only issue I have is with US laws are the civil laws. Primarily those relating to contracts between Muslims only. While we can still legally use the Islamic codes for such, in most states they do not have the status of being legally binding. some area of concern for most of us are the laws regarding marriage, divorce, inheritance and adoption. Inheritance is a main concern as a Muslim has no need of a will. the disposition of property is outlined in the Qur'an. However, here if there is no will the court takes over the disposition of any property. Also adoption is an issue as adoption is not permitted in Islam. although we are required to care for orphans or neglected children, family ties are not to be severed and it is not permissible to change family names or birth rights.

One personal experience I have regards my marriage. We are married in accordance with Islam and some states do not recognize the legality of our marriage, although both the VA and Federal government recognize it.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,859,152 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I have no problem with the criminal Laws. they are very much in line with the Hanafi criminal laws. The criminal laws have no effect on preventing me from following Islam. Also if a Muslim lives in a non-Muslim nation they are obligated to follow the laws of the nation. If the laws prevent a Muslim from following Islam they should leave the Nation if possible.

The only issue I have is with US laws are the civil laws. Primarily those relating to contracts between Muslims only. While we can still legally use the Islamic codes for such, in most states they do not have the status of being legally binding. some area of concern for most of us are the laws regarding marriage, divorce, inheritance and adoption. Inheritance is a main concern as a Muslim has no need of a will. the disposition of property is outlined in the Qur'an. However, here if there is no will the court takes over the disposition of any property. Also adoption is an issue as adoption is not permitted in Islam. although we are required to care for orphans or neglected children, family ties are not to be severed and it is not permissible to change family names or birth rights.

One personal experience I have regards my marriage. We are married in accordance with Islam and some states do not recognize the legality of our marriage, although both the VA and Federal government recognize it.
What does that mean, you are married according to Islam? And what do you care whether they recognize it or not?
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