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Old 09-14-2012, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,323,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
What does that mean, you are married according to Islam? And what do you care whether they recognize it or not?
In Islam Marriage is not a religious event it is a civil contract. Either party initiates the contract by sending a copy of what they expect and desire. the other party then either accepts it, modifies it or flat rejects it. The contract may go Back and forth several times before being acceptable to both parties. Once an agreement is reached it is signed by both parties with 2 witnesses provided by the Bride and 2 witnesses provided by the groom. Once signed it is a legal binding contract and can not be dissolved unless either party violates the contract.

Here in the US in the states that do not recognize it as legal contract. Either party could simply walk out with no legal recourse for the person left behind. Or even worse a Husband could kick his wife out with her having no legal recourse.

An irony is in a state that does not recognize the Islamic Marriage a person could legally practice polygamy if they desired. They would be seen as cohabitating and not married, therefore not committing Bigamy under the state law.
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,865,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In Islam Marriage is not a religious event it is a civil contract. Either party initiates the contract by sending a copy of what they expect and desire. the other party then either accepts it, modifies it or flat rejects it. The contract may go Back and forth several times before being acceptable to both parties. Once an agreement is reached it is signed by both parties with 2 witnesses provided by the Bride and 2 witnesses provided by the groom. Once signed it is a legal binding contract and can not be dissolved unless either party violates the contract.

Here in the US in the states that do not recognize it as legal contract. Either party could simply walk out with no legal recourse for the person left behind. Or even worse a Husband could kick his wife out with her having no legal recourse.

An irony is in a state that does not recognize the Islamic Marriage a person could legally practice polygamy if they desired. They would be seen as cohabitating and not married, therefore not committing Bigamy under the state law.
Yes, they could and do practice polygamy outside of the law.
When you file for divorce, you can also request spousal and child support. Our courts are designed around ensuring the children are cared for. That sounds much better than your unbreakable contract, but contracts are legal in this country. You are not allowed to contract away the rights of your children.
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Old 09-14-2012, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,323,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Yes, they could and do practice polygamy outside of the law.
True, the cohabitation legality is a way to bypass the polygamy laws. You can not have polygamy without a recognized marriage. In a State that does not recognize Islamic marriages a man could in theory marry up to 4 wives and be in compliance with both Shariah and State law. It would make more sense to recognize shariah marriage and than be able to enforce the state polygamy laws that only apply to marriage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
When you file for divorce, you can also request spousal and child support. Our courts are designed around ensuring the children are cared for.
However, in order to have a divorce you have to first recognize the legality of the marriage. In the states that do not recognize Islamic marriages, there is no marriage in the eyes of the states, nothing to divorce from.

what does this have to do with children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
That sounds much better than your unbreakable contract, but contracts are legal in this country. You are not allowed to contract away the rights of your children.
Yes contracts are legal in this country. However you will find that some states forbid any type of sharia Law and an Islamic Marriage is sharia, not recognized in those states.

What does this have to do with contracting the rights of children? The contract is between the Groom and Bride only. To contract marriages of children or arranged marriages is a violation of criminal law. Marriage between consenting adults is civil law.

We do abide by the criminal laws and have no objection in following them.
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:40 AM
 
Location: Northern CA
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Sorry Woodrow, there is no chance in hell we are going to sanction this type of "marriage".

In this country, women have the same rights as men do, and children also have rights. Our family courts are centered around what is best for the children.

for the rest of you looking on, these are the marriage and divorce laws he is referring to.
Sharia law - Conservapedia

You do not get to come to our country and demand special treatment along with your own courts. Our laws come first, we have separation of church (religion) and state (gov't). They are not one and the same. Our laws are based on Judeo-Christian and that's the way we like it.
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Old 09-15-2012, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,122,407 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Sorry Woodrow, there is no chance in hell we are going to sanction this type of "marriage".

You do not get to come to our country and demand special treatment along with your own courts.
Woodrow is a native-born American who fought for our country in the Viet Nam war.
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Old 09-15-2012, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,323,236 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Sorry Woodrow, there is no chance in hell we are going to sanction this type of "marriage".

In this country, women have the same rights as men do, and children also have rights. Our family courts are centered around what is best for the children.

for the rest of you looking on, these are the marriage and divorce laws he is referring to.
Sharia law - Conservapedia

You do not get to come to our country and demand special treatment along with your own courts. Our laws come first, we have separation of church (religion) and state (gov't). They are not one and the same. Our laws are based on Judeo-Christian and that's the way we like it.
Sorry that link is not the Nikkah (Shariah Marriage) I am looking at.

Here is a better view of what the Nikkah is:

HERE



Fortunately it is only about 10 States that don't recognize Sharia Marriage. Woman do have equal rights in the sharia marriage, here in the USA it is often the woman who initiates the Nikkah (Marriage contract) a wise woman is clear as to what she wants in the contract. Usually it includes a life long dowery, full ownership of the house and it's furnishings, plus what ever else she wants.

Some things my wife included in our Nikkh were her ownership of the house, My responsibility for all household expenses, no matter what her personal income may be, plus a few other things.

As far as coming to your country, my wife is native American (Cheyenne) it seems like we all came to her country. I was born here prior to WW2 and served in the USAF during the Korean and early Vietnam era. I fought for my country the USA in combat.

I did not come here wanting to change USA laws,I was born here, I did face combat in Vietnam to help protect all people's right to equal treatment.

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 09-15-2012 at 08:45 AM..
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,865,648 times
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You are importing a Middle Eastern religious system into this country. Women have more rights under our system, and as I said, children have rights. Muslims are to abide by our laws, not create their own and put their religion above. Respect our laws, our courts, and abide by them or don't. But you don't get to demand we change to accomodate you and yours.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,323,236 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
You are importing a Middle Eastern religious system into this country. Women have more rights under our system, and as I said, children have rights. Muslims are to abide by our laws, not create their own and put their religion above. Respect our laws, our courts, and abide by them or don't. But you don't get to demand we change to accomodate you and yours.
Neither I nor any Muslim I know is asking for any changes in the criminal codes of the USA. we are asking for recognition of the Islamic civil laws. Which do not violate any criminal laws. Legally we can use them, under current laws, the only issue is they are not recognized as binding contracts in a few states.

We are obligated to honor and respect the laws of the land. We have no issue with that. However, we would like to see Islamic civil codes recognized as being binding among Muslims and Muslims only. Provided such laws do not violate any criminal laws. This requires no action on the part of the state, and has no effect on non-Muslims. It poses no changes in existing laws and does not require non-Muslims to make any changes.

The things we desire are basically the same rights Judaism and several other religions already have. The civil laws we desire are essentially the same laws the Jews have except administrated by an Islamic council instead of a Rabbi.

I have no desire to see any form of Shariah placed upon non-Muslims. In fact under Islam, sharia law can not be used in affairs involving non-Muslims. Wahhabi which many non-Muslims believe to be shariah is not part of Islam.

Again I would like to reiterate what I am speaking of is civil law, not criminal law. Which we can and do use except without recognition by some states. the injustice comes that by being unrecognized we can not claim the same Tax benefits or have assurance it will be followed especially in regards to inheritance.
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,865,648 times
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You have convinced me of one thing, Woodrow. I need to get Pamela Gellers' new book. Good day.
Atlas Shrugs


Pamela Geller: President Obama Sanctions Blasphemy Laws - Fox & Friends - 9-15-12 - YouTube#!
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,323,236 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
You have convinced me of one thing, Woodrow. I need to get Pamela Gellers' new book. Good day.
Atlas Shrugs


Pamela Geller: President Obama Sanctions Blasphemy Laws - Fox & Friends - 9-15-12 - YouTube#!
It is a very interesting book. I urge you to read it and also hope you have the openness to read other opinions. If I urge people one thing that one thing is to always look at all sides of any issue and form opinions based upon what one has personally researched.
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