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Old 09-21-2012, 12:51 AM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,850,497 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
that is what most of us want to do. However in most areas there are no Islamic communities. Also many of us are born Americans with family roots going back many generations.. I would not fit in a new generation Islamic community as my culture Is apple pie American.

Very few Muslims in the US are Arabic or Mideastern. Most who are, are recent immigrants as most of the older Arab communities in the USA are predominately Christian, not Muslim. My wife is Native American, Cheyenne. Probably more American than most Americans of European ancestry.. Many Native Americans in the midwestern states are Muslim. Islam has been in the Americas since the 1500s. We are not new here. Some have Family trees in America dating back to before the Revolutionary war.

On a personal basis I have no desire to convert anybody and feel that if a person converted because of anything I say, it would be for the wrong reason. I only want things recognized, no changes to the law just recognition of Islamic civil law as Jewish and several other religious civil laws are recognized.

As for halal meat in the stores, that is a marketing thing by the meat producers to get their share of the Islamic market. We can only eat meat that is Halal or Jewish Kosher if Halal is not available. Nearly every other food is halal. unless it contains meat or alcohol. Most foods are naturally halal and require no Muslim involvement to be sold as halal. some store brands are starting to place halal lavels in hopes of getting the Islamic market.
Gee, I wonder how they managed from the 1500's til now.

I'm not concerned about halal, if it is a more humane method of slaughter. There was a program on CNN about a Jewish slaughterhouse that was rampant with cruelty, as well as a flagrant criminal enterprise. It took many years to expose the largest kosher business in the U.S. All this went on with U.S. inspections and oversight from religious orgs.
Is Life Sentence Kosher for Sholom Rubashkin, Jewish Slaughterhouse Boss Guilty of $26 Million Fraud? - Crimesider - CBS News
http://www.biblestudysite.com/kosherslaughter.htm
Jewish Vegetarianism: When Kosher Isn't Kosher
http://www.jewishjournal.com/nation/..._ceo_20080528/

However, I would be disturbed if the workers have to have numerous breaks that aren't standard, for prayer or whatever. That is not adapting. That is forcing a company to accomodate your religion above others, as something special.
It is you that should follow the rules of the company, or don't choose to work there.
You have many rules that don't work within a democracy such as ours. We have enough trouble not enforcing our own laws, as you can plainly see.
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Old 09-21-2012, 02:29 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
Gee, I wonder how they managed from the 1500's til now.

I'm not concerned about halal, if it is a more humane method of slaughter. There was a program on CNN about a Jewish slaughterhouse that was rampant with cruelty, as well as a flagrant criminal enterprise. It took many years to expose the largest kosher business in the U.S. All this went on with U.S. inspections and oversight from religious orgs.
Is Life Sentence Kosher for Sholom Rubashkin, Jewish Slaughterhouse Boss Guilty of $26 Million Fraud? - Crimesider - CBS News
http://www.biblestudysite.com/kosherslaughter.htm
Jewish Vegetarianism: When Kosher Isn't Kosher
http://www.jewishjournal.com/nation/..._ceo_20080528/

However, I would be disturbed if the workers have to have numerous breaks that aren't standard, for prayer or whatever. That is not adapting. That is forcing a company to accomodate your religion above others, as something special.
It is you that should follow the rules of the company, or don't choose to work there.
You have many rules that don't work within a democracy such as ours. We have enough trouble not enforcing our own laws, as you can plainly see.
If done properly both the Kosher and halal Zabiah slaughter are both very humane. The animals to be slaughtered are to be raised with the utmost of kindness and at the time of slaughter it is to be done out of sight of any other animals. the cutting is to be complete within a few seconds. Unconsciousness occurs almost instantly. Actual death should occur within a minute. It can look messy, but in studies done with EEG's there is no indication of any stress activity in the brain. I'll try to find links to the studies.

As for breaks for prayers, those who use this to interfere with work, are misusing the prayer schedules.. The required prayer times are at 1/2 hour before sunrise, Mid morning, Mid afternoon, After the sunsets, but before it gets dark and immediately before going to bed for sleep. Typically the prayers take 5 to 10 minutes. The Mid morning prayer, Mid afternoon and sunset prayers can be combined and all 3 said at the time of the sunset prayer. if something prevents them from being said during the prescribed time. there is also about a 30 minute leeway allowed for the times. Most people can work it out to use their break or lunch time to say their prayers. The one exception is the Friday Jummah prayer which must be at a Mosque or in congregation with other Muslims. However most mosques offer Jummah 2 times Early and late Jummah. It is only an obligation to attend either one. again most people can fit this in with their lunch break or after work.There are very few circumstances in which the prayers would interfere with work. With a little planning a Muslim need never have his prayers interfere with his work. while a company may offer to have prayer breaks as an employment incentive it generally is not needed.
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Old 09-21-2012, 02:55 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
I found the German study of Halal slaughter' It is a long read but the highlight is:

Quote:
The slaughter in the form of ritual cut is, if carried out properly, painless in sheep and calves according to the EEG recordings and the missing defensive actions.
SOURCE

Also using halal slaughter should not cause any additional expense to a slaughter house as it can be done by any Muslim. A Muslim is not permitted to make a profit by doing something that is required. Any Muslim employee at the slaughter house can do the slaughter. It need not be an Imam. We have no ordained clergy in Islam and every Muslim is equal. No special status for any clergy.
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Old 09-21-2012, 06:26 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,252,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
I see. Well then the solution is for you to adapt, or do your thing amongst eachother, within your community rather than involving our gov't, local or federal. In other words, by contract. Wouldn't that make everybody happy?

Speaking as a very firm secularist, I think this is absolutely the right way to go. Civil and contract law can be amazingly flexible beasts, and for the most part I think they could cover most forms of religious law. If we as a society got into a habit of approaching things this way, it would ease a lot of friction between various groups. It would certainly solve and simplify areas where religions overlap with the state like marriage, divorce, inheritance, etc...

-NoCapo
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Texas
632 posts, read 1,005,156 times
Reputation: 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Sincere questions are always welcome. I apologize for thinking RedRage was a He
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper View Post
"her" questions. thank you gentlemen. Yes, I find this thread intriquing. It's a great opportunity for us all.

I'm actually a guy folks.
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Old 09-21-2012, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 9,850,497 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRage View Post
I'm actually a guy folks.
I figured that, I thought he was talking about me, that's why I said oops.
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Bel Air, California
21,342 posts, read 21,922,845 times
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what do muslims consider reasonable in providing for dedicated prayer space in the workplace?
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghengis View Post
what do muslims consider reasonable in providing for dedicated prayer space in the workplace?
That would depend on how many Muslims are involved and how many are men and how many are women.

Typically it takes 18 Inches by 30 inches for each person. Male and female require separate spaces where they can not see each other.
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Old 12-07-2013, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
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Since devout Muslims do not believe we humans evolved from other animals, when do you think the first humans were created?
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Old 12-07-2013, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Since devout Muslims do not believe we humans evolved from other animals, when do you think the first humans were created?
If you are looking for a year, I don't know of any Muslim that would even venture a guess.

If you are looking after an event Again most of us probably would not be able to name one as we do not believe human's were created here on the physical Earth but were created in a location called "Eden" or Paradise" etc. It was after all things on earth were created that man-kind was placed on Earth.

The Qur'an only has about 4 ayyat that even mention the creation of man.
"We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape..." (15:26)

"He began the creation of man from clay, and made his progeny from a quintessence of fluid" (32:7-8)

"It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her in love" (7:189)

"Oh humankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honoured among you in the sight of Allah is the who is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)" (49:13).

A mentioning in Surat 71 seems to support the possibility of evolution. A few Scholars do see it as doing so.

13. What is the matter with you, [that you fear not Allah (His punishment), and] you hope not for reward (from Allah or you believe not in His Oneness)
.14. While He has created you in stages


15. See you not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,



The method of the creation of man is not a matter of concern in the Qur'an. Generally Muslims accept the Judaic concept of Creation. The only thing most of us agree on is that Mankind came from one original set of Parents.

I think you will find most Muslims accept evolution of all life forms except man. There is disagreement among us as to if the Qur'an does or does not support evolution of Humans.

As to a time frame of when man was created. My own opinion is we are a late arrival on Earth. Although we could have been created elsewhere billions of years ago.
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