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Old 08-08-2011, 07:24 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Good Questions.

Islam is a verb and means "The act of submitting to God(swt)" The word Salam or shalom in Hebrew comes from the same root and means Peace. Submitting to God(swt) is Peace.

A Muslim is a person who does Islam, in other words a person who submits to God(swt) the female equivilant is Muslimah a woman who submits to God(swt). During the Crusades the English Crusaders coined the names Mohammedans, called the religion Mohammadism as they believed we followed Muhammad. there are no equivalent words in English for Islam or Muslim. The Pope chose to call us "In Fidelis" (the Unfaithful) which became infidel and was used for all non-Catholics. Our Religion actually has no formal name if you think in terms of things like Catholic, Protestant etc. All people who submit to God(swt) are Muslim.

We believe submission is by following the 5 pillars of Faith and all who did so going back to the creation are Muslim. In other words all who followed the true scriptures up to their time were Muslim, the Jews who followed the original Torah, were Muslim, the people who followed the Injil revealed through Jesus were Muslim. they stopped being Muslim when they stopped following the original scripture, they stopped submitting to Allah. We do not call the Jews, and Christians of today Muslim, as we believe they no longer submit to Allaah(swt) But we also acknowledge some may still be Muslim and we do not know it. That is why we say we do not know who will go to heaven, but we believe all Muslims (Everbody who truly submits to God) will go to heaven.

Who truly does his best to submit God(swt) as evidenced by following the pillars of faith is Muslim and known only to the person and God(swt) No man knows the intentions of another or what is in the hearts of another. that is strictly between the person and God(swt). We can visibly see if a person is following the 5 pillars, but we do not know if they are doing so sincerly. We also can see if a person is not following the 5 pillars, but we do not know if they are not doing them deliberately. We have no ordained clergy any central leader or any membership, nothing to join. A person either is or is not a Muslim. We believe all people are born Muslim, some stray away, or get misguided and never return. to us nobody converts to Islam, they revert back to what they always were.

The word Quran simply means "recitation" although as Muslims we use it only for the recitation from God(swt) some non Muslim Arab speakers use it to mean any Book that is from a recitation, some Christian Arabs call the Bible the Qur'an

Still though, is that what Muhammad called the religion? Or what the Caliphs decided to call it? I used to call myself a Muslim, since I believe I am truly following God's will, however, since my conscience and experience prevented me from believing in some of the Pillars, many more "historic" Muslims said I wasn't a Muslim, after all, the root of Christianity means “anoint” since it is translated from Messiah which also means “anointed”. Many Christians still do rub oil on their foreheads. Still, these words hardly give credence to the frothing religions they represent. However, as you say Islam comes from the same root as Shalom did Abraham call his religion Shalom? Or was it like in the Ancient societies, where they didn't have names for their religions?

Thank you. I had forgottent that Quran means recitation.
the word "Bible" comes from Greek τὰ βιβλία which means "the books"
So if we mixed the Quran with some hadiths under one binding we would have a Muslim Bible. No?

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 08-08-2011 at 07:39 PM..
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Still though, is that what Muhammad called the religion? Or what the Caliphs decided to call it? I used to call myself a Muslim, since I believe I am truly following God's will, however, since my conscience and experience prevented me from believing in some of the Pillars, many more "historic" Muslims said I wasn't a Muslim, after all, the root of Christianity means “anoint” since it is translated from Messiah which also means “anointed”. Many Christians still do rub oil on their foreheads. Still, these words hardly give credence to the frothing religions they represent. However, as you say Islam comes from the same root as Shalom did Abraham call his religion Shalom? Or was it like in the Ancient societies, where they didn't have names for their religions?

Thank you. I had forgottent that Quran means recitation.
the word "Bible" comes from Greek τὰ βιβλία which means "the books"
Both Islam and Muslim are used in the Qur'an. Muslim is used 15 times and Islam is used 38 times. So I think it is safe to say that even during the time of Muhammad(PBUH) they were used. It probably was much later before they became used by Non-Arab speaking people especially non-Muslims. While it is true the Word Bible comes from the Greek Biblios meaning books. You will find some Arab Christians using Qur'an for the Bible. I noticed that first in Agadir, Morocco. In my Christian missionary years in the mideast I also called the Bible my Qur'an

If you had said the Shahadah at least once in sincerity, you are a Muslim. You may be lax in following the 5 pillars, but no Muslim has the right to say you are not a Muslim, unless you make ii very obvious you are refusing to do the 5 daily prayers on a continuous basis. It is a very grave sign for a Muslim to call another Muslim a Kafir and we are urged to be cautious in saying anyone is not a Muslim as we do not know what is in another persons heart. On a personal note I never call anyone a kafir although I may comment they do not appear to be following Islam.
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Old 08-08-2011, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
So if we mixed the Quran with some hadiths under one binding we would have a Muslim Bible. No?
I chose to answer this seperate. Interesting thought.

One issue would come up, the Qur'an is the word of Allaah(swt) the Ahadith are the eyewitness reports of humans. Most would not want to see them combined as we must perform Wudu before handling the Qur'an and no purification is needed to handle hadith.

Perhaps if they were translated into English it could be considered a Muslim Bible. As any Translation of the Qur'an is not considered to be the Qur'an.

Might even be a good idea. Might even bring back the meaning of bible as simply meaning a collection of books and not limited to Christian Scriptures.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:09 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Both Islam and Muslim are used in the Qur'an. Muslim is used 15 times and Islam is used 38 times. So I think it is safe to say that even during the time of Muhammad(PBUH) they were used. It probably was much later before they became used by Non-Arab speaking people especially non-Muslims. While it is true the Word Bible comes from the Greek Biblios meaning books. You will find some Arab Christians using Qur'an for the Bible. I noticed that first in Agadir, Morocco. In my Christian missionary years in the mideast I also called the Bible my Qur'an
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

If you had said the Shahadah at least once in sincerity, you are a Muslim. You may be lax in following the 5 pillars, but no Muslim has the right to say you are not a Muslim, unless you make ii very obvious you are refusing to do the 5 daily prayers on a continuous basis. It is a very grave sign for a Muslim to call another Muslim a Kafir and we are urged to be cautious in saying anyone is not a Muslim as we do not know what is in another persons heart. On a personal note I never call anyone a kafir although I may comment they do not appear to be following Islam.

I could not say the Shahadah in sincerity, both because I have no preference for monotheism over polytheism or atheism, and because I don't chose to trust Muhammad and those after him. The other pillars seemed more unnecessary after that one struck against my conscience. I had decided that I would pray 7 times a day, but I never began the regimen, mostly because I can’t bring myself to seem to show off. Plus, I decided that such a thought only sprang to my mind because of my jealousy of the seemingly higher spirituality or righteousness of Muhammadist Muslims. Also, I didn’t find prayer to be any more powerful than thinking.

In any case, a lot of Christians here call some version of the Christian Bible “the word” so perhaps they think “the recitation” is equivalent to “the word”.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
I could not say the Shahadah in sincerity, both because I have no preference for monotheism over polytheism or atheism, and because I don't chose to trust Muhammad and those after him. The other pillars seemed more unnecessary after that one struck against my conscience. I had decided that I would pray 7 times a day, but I never began the regimen, mostly because I can’t bring myself to seem to show off. Plus, I decided that such a thought only sprang to my mind because of my jealousy of the seemingly higher spirituality or righteousness of Muhammadist Muslims. Also, I didn’t find prayer to be any more powerful than thinking.

In any case, a lot of Christians here call some version of the Christian Bible “the word” so perhaps they think “the recitation” is equivalent to “the word”.
It may be a bit of a Cliche but "Honesty is the Best Policy" a person must be honest to themselves.

Each person has the freedom of choice. But, I hope each does so of their own free choice and has made their choice based upon their own investigation and verification.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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The above couple of post reminded me of another often asked question.

Why do Muslims kill people who leave Islam, if there is no compulsion in Islam?

I will not deny that does happen. In fact way too often. While the maximum for apostasy is death, it is not a required punishment and to be used only in cases were the Apostasy included other crimes such as treason. While there have been many executions for apostasy, legal executions have been rare. I may be wrong but I am quite certain the only legal executions were in the very early days and there were numerous wars among the various Arab tribes. There were instances that people would infiltrate the Muslim ranks, profess to be Muslim but were doing so only to spy and/or fight from within. Their actions strongly indicated they had left Islam. While the charges included apostasy the execution was for treason. There were also Muslims who changed allegiance during war and left Islam and fought on the side of the enemy, which is treason.

If a person simply leaves Islam and commits no crimes as a result of leaving there is no problem. He will not even be charged with apostasy unless he is openly proclaiming being an apostate and then the Death penalty is not considered applicable unless other crimes are involved.

there are a few interesting ayyats in the Qur'an for example:

From Surah 47

Quote:
25. Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.
It would be quite difficult for a person to return to apostasy if they had been killed for being an Apostate. I can not think of the specific ayyats but there are several that speak of people who came to and left Islam almost like if was a revolving door. If they had been killed for being apostates how could they return to and leave Islam multiple times?
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Old 08-14-2011, 07:59 AM
 
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Default A few questions I have about Islam #1

In your opinion, how did the differences of opinion about the divinity of Jesus arise between Islam and Christianity?
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Old 08-14-2011, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by jeremyrussell View Post
In your opinion, how did the differences of opinion about the divinity of Jesus arise between Islam and Christianity?
We believe the Qur'an to be the actual words of Allaah(swt) not the words of Muhammad(PBUH) nor any other man.

In the Qur'an, Allaah(swt) very specifically tells us:

Quote:
48. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.
Quote:
171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
Quote:
116. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
There are numerous other Ayyats that specifically state there is no trinity and that Jesus(as) was a Prophet, not divine

We believe God(swt) himself told us Jesus(as) is not divine and there is no trinity.It was nothing that developed, it is in the revelation of the Qur'an.
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:20 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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But Jesus' earliest followers were clearly Christian. In fact, it was Paul, Luke, Peter, James, etc whom began the religion of Christianity, above what Jesus had taught before he was sentenced to death for inspiring sedition, molesting the peace, committing heresy, failure to recant, and failing to deliver himself unto the authorities, an obvious sign of guilt of the four previous crimes: the first three of which Socrates was also sentenced to death for by the Greco-Roman polytheists, because he would not recant agnosticism or atheism. Non-the-less, Jesus' direct followers do secularly appear to have believed he was worthy of worship as God's anointed son and miracle unto this world. Does the Quran say why these direct followers were so mistaken? "I and the Father are one"; "the Holy Spirit dwells within me"; "I am the Word"; "I am the Truth, light, way...etc" His direct followers began to say that they had witness him alive after the third day, just like Messianic prophesy had foretold... that it was time for Israel to rebel against Rome. That the end of the world was near… that Jesus would soon burn down our world and separate the good from the bad…etc etc. None of these early followers were focused on the “oneness” and “separateness” of the god of Israel. Of course, none of these early followers seemed to be focused on the “within-ness” of God either. So, why would YHWH-Elohim, supposed by Muslims today as “Allah” allow Jesus’ message to be corrupted but not Muhammad’s? When Muhammad himself said he was tricked by demons in one of his “recitations” on how to treat the polytheists? Christians use this one Hadith, or Surah, commonly in their apologies against Islam.
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Old 08-14-2011, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
But Jesus' earliest followers were clearly Christian. In fact, it was Paul, Luke, Peter, James, etc whom began the religion of Christianity, above what Jesus had taught before he was sentenced to death for inspiring sedition, molesting the peace, committing heresy, failure to recant, and failing to deliver himself unto the authorities, an obvious sign of guilt of the four previous crimes: the first three of which Socrates was also sentenced to death for by the Greco-Roman polytheists, because he would not recant agnosticism or atheism. Non-the-less, Jesus' direct followers do secularly appear to have believed he was worthy of worship as God's anointed son and miracle unto this world. Does the Quran say why these direct followers were so mistaken? "I and the Father are one"; "the Holy Spirit dwells within me"; "I am the Word"; "I am the Truth, light, way...etc" His direct followers began to say that they had witness him alive after the third day, just like Messianic prophesy had foretold... that it was time for Israel to rebel against Rome. That the end of the world was near… that Jesus would soon burn down our world and separate the good from the bad…etc etc. None of these early followers were focused on the “oneness” and “separateness” of the god of Israel. Of course, none of these early followers seemed to be focused on the “within-ness” of God either. So, why would YHWH-Elohim, supposed by Muslims today as “Allah” allow Jesus’ message to be corrupted but not Muhammad’s? When Muhammad himself said he was tricked by demons in one of his “recitations” on how to treat the polytheists? Christians use this one Hadith, or Surah, commonly in their apologies against Islam.
To start Backwards:
Quote:
When Muhammad himself said he was tricked by demons in one of his “recitations” on how to treat the polytheists? Christians use this one Hadith, or Surah, commonly in their apologies against Islam.
That is from an authenticate Hadith among those compiled by Bukhari. The Ahadith are things attributed to what Muhammad(PBUH) said and did. The ahadith are not scripture, but rather true historical accounts. I do not know what Muhammad(PBUH) meant when he said that but I am certain he did say such as the hadith quoted has a very high level of authenticity and has numerous unrelated sources. I am not certain what it was Muhammad(PBUH) was referring to but if memory serves me right it had something to do with what the scribes wrote as a Surah and upon reviewing what was read back to him from the written, Muhammad(PBUH) said that was his own words and not from revelation it was not part of the Quran.

Getting back to the rest of your question the Quran says little about the apostles except to say they were true believers. Nothing much is mentioned about what they taught.

The Arabian peninsula was made up predominately of waring tribes, most being pagan and some various Jewish sects. There were some Christians in the area. based on the time, any Christians would have been Catholic/Othodox. So if Muhammad had any personal opinions about Christians he would have been speaking of Catholics.
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