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Old 08-18-2011, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This kind of apologetics reminds me of the story of the wife who found her husband in bed with two women in flagrante. He said who are you going to believe your eyes or what I tell you. You have credibility Wood . . . but not that much! Islam and its cultural roots and attitudes is a barbaric deen that presents a clear and present danger to the West and all civilized 21st Century societies.
While I see the culture of Iran and to some extent that of Saudi to be a danger. I do differ with you in the concept it is the result of Islam. In my travels I have found the people in the Mideastern regions to be highly volatile and very emotional no matter what religion they follow. (Not all are like that, but enough to cause concern) There have been and still are similar incidents among Jews, Christians, Yezidi, and other religions in the region, not just Muslims. I suspect there is/are other factors at play and not necessarily any religious ideology.

Just for example:

Quote:
A 17-year-old girl has been stoned to death in Iraq because she loved a teenage boy of the wrong religion.
As a horrifying video of the stoning went out on the Internet, the British arm of Amnesty International condemned the death of Du?a Khalil Aswad as "an abhorrent murder" and demanded that her killers be brought to justice.
Reports from Iraq said a local security force witnessed the incident, but did nothing to try to stop it. Now her boyfriend is in hiding in fear for his life.
Miss Aswad, a member of a minority Kurdish religious group called Yezidi, was condemned to death as an "honour killing" by other men in her family and hardline religious leaders because of her relationship with the Sunni Muslim boy.
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Old 08-18-2011, 01:02 PM
 
147 posts, read 133,493 times
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My brother woodrow i want to understand something why always separate the law of religion from civilized 21st Century societies maybe it is [Pandemic] also there are muslims think like this way but [what a shame on them] yes the west Civilized and i like their developed but in moral i can not describe the problem they think they respect the women where is the respect when they go with 10 women in 1year maybe more and in the end when she has baby he leave her i swear i saw this things in animals so the people do like animals Allah [gth] gave the women and men all the honor Allah learned me how i give the women all respect and love through the married so how she is expensive in Islam -all the women like married all of them want married the law of stoning protect men and women make me trust from my wife and she also trust so my Neighbor traveled to France and go with women and return to his wife while he carry AIDS the mother and father died their Daughter without father and mother so What is the guilt of Daughter and wife all that because mistake of one day so if he live he deserve Grinding not stoning really i see in west
Chaos why the people did not gather the Civilized and morals how the life will be wonderful so any one refuse the stoning because he or she like to cheat .
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Old 08-18-2011, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashkarloveALLAH View Post
My brother woodrow i want to understand something why always separate the law of religion from civilized 21st Century societies maybe it is [Pandemic] also there are muslims think like this way but [what a shame on them] yes the west Civilized and i like their developed but in moral i can not describe the problem they think they respect the women where is the respect when they go with 10 women in 1year maybe more and in the end when she has baby he leave her i swear i saw this things in animals so the people do like animals Allah [gth] gave the women and men all the honor Allah learned me how i give the women all respect and love through the married so how she is expensive in Islam -all the women like married all of them want married the law of stoning protect men and women make me trust from my wife and she also trust so my Neighbor traveled to France and go with women and return to his wife while he carry AIDS the mother and father died their Daughter without father and mother so What is the guilt of Daughter and wife all that because mistake of one day so if he live he deserve Grinding not stoning really i see in west
Chaos why the people did not gather the Civilized and morals how the life will be wonderful so any one refuse the stoning because he or she like to cheat .

As Salaaamu Alaikum My Brother,

The Western world is very much a puzzle to Muslims. The seperation of State and religion has it Roots in the injustices of the "Holy Roman Empire" and the Catholic Church controlled most of the Western World. In the Americas particularly in North America and the British Colonies that became the USA, there was great fear that the Pope would somehow gain control over America, so the seperation of State and religion was put into place to keep the Americas free from control by Catholicism.

There are two results of that division one result is it makes it possible for people of all Religions to practice openly. The other is it makes moral issues the consensus of the people. Morality becomes what the majority want it to be.

However, it does make it possible for different states and communities to have different laws as based upon what the people in a region desire. For example there are areas were it is illegal to sell alcohol, there are towns that have dressing laws for when people are in public etc.

When a Muslim lives in a Western country, our personal responsibility to live a pious life becomes more difficult as we do get faced with more fitnah. but at the same time it is an excellent opportunity to see what happens when one does not follow the Sirat Mustaqeem.

Stoning is an unacceptable form of punishment for most of the Western World, but by paradox the sanitary forms of approved execution results in more executions. but because they look clean and painless they are acceptable to much of the Western world.

The idea of shariah law does scare westerners as they see it as similar to the control the Popes once had. Gentle and peaceful education is what is needed is for us to show by example that Islam is a solution, not a threat. Islam can not be forced upon people and shariah will never be accepted, until by example and living a Pious life, we can let people know through their own eyes and ears. People have to accept Islam because they find it to be the best way, not because we tell them it is. We can provide sincere answers to their questions, but we can not force.
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Old 08-18-2011, 03:00 PM
 
40,177 posts, read 26,806,349 times
Reputation: 6057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The idea of shariah law does scare westerners as they see it as similar to the control the Popes once had. Gentle and peaceful education is what is needed is for us to show by example that Islam is a solution, not a threat. Islam can not be forced upon people and shariah will never be accepted, until by example and living a Pious life, we can let people know through their own eyes and ears. People have to accept Islam because they find it to be the best way, not because we tell them it is. We can provide sincere answers to their questions, but we can not force.
::Sigh:: The idea of ANY religious law enforceable by men is an abomination . . . and a sign that the God in question must be IMPOTENT. If God cannot enforce His own wishes . . . He is no God . . . just a tool of human dictators. Societies use laws to control and limit the evil men do to others . . . NOT the violations of some God's supposed wishes. ALL religious laws and would-be theocracies are an abomination to civilized society, period.
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Old 08-18-2011, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
::Sigh:: The idea of ANY religious law enforceable by men is an abomination . . . and a sign that the God in question must be IMPOTENT. If God cannot enforce His own wishes . . . He is no God . . . just a tool of human dictators. Societies use laws to control and limit the evil men do to others . . . NOT the violations of some God's supposed wishes. ALL religious laws and would-be theocracies are an abomination to civilized society, period.
Most Religious laws are very much the same as the laws of most secular nations. Things such as murder, robbery, kidnapping are illegal virtually every place. Yes, most religions do have restrictions (laws) specific to the religion. I do agree those should not be enforceable to those not of the same belief.

Would a system in which everybody has the same secular laws, but religious courts be given authority to enforce religious laws for members of their faith, be a feasible system?
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Old 08-18-2011, 04:24 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,751,950 times
Reputation: 1333
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This kind of apologetics reminds me of the story of the wife who found her husband in bed with two women in flagrante. He said who are you going to believe your eyes or what I tell you. You have credibility Wood . . . but not that much! Islam and its cultural roots and attitudes is a barbaric deen that presents a clear and present danger to the West and all civilized 21st Century societies.
I highly disagree. Woodrow has one of the most legitimate views on what true and unadulterated Islam is because he is so scholarly and studius. All that the news demonstrates is the failure of Religion to stop evil, and sometimes the religious contributions to it.
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Old 08-18-2011, 04:25 PM
 
Location: USA
19,872 posts, read 14,751,398 times
Reputation: 12800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As Salaaamu Alaikum My Brother,

The Western world is very much a puzzle to Muslims. The seperation of State and religion has it Roots in the injustices of the "Holy Roman Empire" and the Catholic Church controlled most of the Western World. In the Americas particularly in North America and the British Colonies that became the USA, there was great fear that the Pope would somehow gain control over America, so the seperation of State and religion was put into place to keep the Americas free from control by Catholicism.

There are two results of that division one result is it makes it possible for people of all Religions to practice openly. The other is it makes moral issues the consensus of the people. Morality becomes what the majority want it to be.

However, it does make it possible for different states and communities to have different laws as based upon what the people in a region desire. For example there are areas were it is illegal to sell alcohol, there are towns that have dressing laws for when people are in public etc.

When a Muslim lives in a Western country, our personal responsibility to live a pious life becomes more difficult as we do get faced with more fitnah. but at the same time it is an excellent opportunity to see what happens when one does not follow the Sirat Mustaqeem.

Stoning is an unacceptable form of punishment for most of the Western World, but by paradox the sanitary forms of approved execution results in more executions. but because they look clean and painless they are acceptable to much of the Western world.

The idea of shariah law does scare westerners as they see it as similar to the control the Popes once had. Gentle and peaceful education is what is needed is for us to show by example that Islam is a solution, not a threat. Islam can not be forced upon people and shariah will never be accepted, until by example and living a Pious life, we can let people know through their own eyes and ears. People have to accept Islam because they find it to be the best way, not because we tell them it is. We can provide sincere answers to their questions, but we can not force.
Woodrow LI,
While I find many of your arguments very eloquently written, you do seem to change your view occasionally post to post to put your religion in better light. Above, you speak of an ideal Islamic country with shariah law in place. Sounds great, and I have Muslim relatives that make it sound fantastic too! If this place existed I'd want to be there!! Unfortunately, In your previous post you list examples of countries that don't share your view of an ideal Islamic state (Iran and Saudi Arabia), because of stoning and Islamic interpretation amongst other things. The two countries you listed along with most of the rest of the Muslim countries are viewed as typical Islamic countries by the rest of the world. If Islam and shariah law are supposed to be great and good than why is it that most of these countries are back wards and violent. The excuses I hear are:

1) These are local and tribal issues and most Muslims don't think that way.
2) Colonialism is responsible for the situation in these countries.
3) Other religions have the same problems. While it's fair to compare your religion to other similar religions there are really no great examples of an integrated Christian government unless you want to pick Vatican City and there’s not a lot of violence or revolution going on there?


So, my question is, and I’m not being sarcastic:

Where is this ideal Islamic country that you and others describe? With out an example you have no more credibility than any other person preaching their peaceful religian. The world isn’t going to come running to become like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Somalia, or Egypt.

We have it pretty good here in the west and I don't see the need to start experimenting with our system.

Last edited by LS Jaun; 08-18-2011 at 04:35 PM..
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Old 08-18-2011, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
Woodrow LI,
While I find many of your arguments very eloquently spoken, you do seem to change your view occasionally post to put to make your religion in better light. Above, you speak of an ideal Islamic country with shariah law in place. Sounds great, and I have Muslim relatives that make it sound fantastic too! If this place existed I'd want to be there!! Unfortunately, In your previous post you list examples of countries that don't share your view of an ideal Islamic state (Iran and Saudi Arabia), because of stoning and Islamic interpretation amongst other things. The two countries you listed along with most of the rest of the Muslim countries are viewed as typical Islamic countries by the rest of the world. If Islam and shariah law are supposed to be great and good than why is it that most of these countries are back wards and violent. The excuses I hear are:

1) These are local and tribal issues and most Muslims don't think that way.
2) Colonialism is responsible for the situation in these countries.
3) Other religions have the same problems. While it's fair to compare your religion to other similar religions there are really no great examples of an integrated Christian government unless you want to pick Vatican City and thereís not a lot of violence or revolution going on there?

So, my question is, and Iím not being sarcastic:

Where is this ideal Islamic country that you and others describe? The world isnít going to come running to become like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Somalia, or Egypt.
There are no Islamic Nations. Only countries the Western world has labelled as being Islamic. There are countries that are predominately Muslim, but that does not make them Islamic.

The only way an Islamic Nation is possible is to be a Caliphate. There will be no Caliphate again until the Birth of the Mehdi and the return of Jesus(as). We believe Sharia to be God(swt) ordered law and it can only be implemented by one truly chosen by God(swt) Most of us believe that will require the return of Jesus(as)

We can approximate Shariah in terms of Civil Law, but for criminal law there is no consensus over which school of Islamic Jurisprudence is the best judge of Shariah. So far the only agreement is the maximum punishment allowed for the 5 Hadd laws. But there is much debate over when and how the maximum penalty is determined. Most of us who adhere to the Maliki school of Jurisprudence will argue that there has never been a case with satisfactory proof to warrant the maximum penalty for any of the hadd laws.

When I speak of an Islamic Nation I am usually meaning the ideal, which does not exist today.
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Old 08-18-2011, 05:47 PM
 
Location: USA
19,872 posts, read 14,751,398 times
Reputation: 12800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are no Islamic Nations. Only countries the Western world has labelled as being Islamic. There are countries that are predominately Muslim, but that does not make them Islamic.

The only way an Islamic Nation is possible is to be a Caliphate. There will be no Caliphate again until the Birth of the Mehdi and the return of Jesus(as). We believe Sharia to be God(swt) ordered law and it can only be implemented by one truly chosen by God(swt) Most of us believe that will require the return of Jesus(as)

We can approximate Shariah in terms of Civil Law, but for criminal law there is no consensus over which school of Islamic Jurisprudence is the best judge of Shariah. So far the only agreement is the maximum punishment allowed for the 5 Hadd laws. But there is much debate over when and how the maximum penalty is determined. Most of us who adhere to the Maliki school of Jurisprudence will argue that there has never been a case with satisfactory proof to warrant the maximum penalty for any of the hadd laws.

When I speak of an Islamic Nation I am usually meaning the ideal, which does not exist today.
There are no Islamic Nations. Only countries the Western world has labeled as being Islamic."

I would say that it is not just the Western world that shares this view. Even many Muslims consider Saudi Arabia an Islamic Country.

I would still like to see someone point to evidence on a country wide level that would indicate that Islam is more beneficial to the state than a sectarian or religious country of another faith.

I have seen the good deeds, helping the poor that all religions including Islam practice. I just don't see any evidence at a larger scale that Islam and many other religions can work in a successful country.
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Old 08-18-2011, 05:52 PM
 
40,177 posts, read 26,806,349 times
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Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
I highly disagree. Woodrow has one of the most legitimate views on what true and unadulterated Islam is because he is so scholarly and studius. All that the news demonstrates is the failure of Religion to stop evil, and sometimes the religious contributions to it.
Sorry.. . . . as long as the DOMINANT examples of Islamic rule continue to exhibit their cultural barbarity . . . Wood's "Ideal" is irrelevant to real politik. Besides . . . it is the CONCEPT itself of religious authority enforceable by fallible humans that is absurd and anachronistic. Belief in God is an individual matter and NOT a societal one. We each are responsible for our relationship with God . . . no one else. ALL attempts to enforce religious rules on society are an abomination. The culturally backward and barbaric ones of Islam (and some sects of Christianity) are particularly offensive and corrosive of personal liberty.
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