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Old 08-18-2011, 05:54 PM
 
40,099 posts, read 26,767,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
Woodrow LI,
While I find many of your arguments very eloquently written, you do seem to change your view occasionally post to post to put your religion in better light. Above, you speak of an ideal Islamic country with shariah law in place. Sounds great, and I have Muslim relatives that make it sound fantastic too! If this place existed I'd want to be there!! Unfortunately, In your previous post you list examples of countries that don't share your view of an ideal Islamic state (Iran and Saudi Arabia), because of stoning and Islamic interpretation amongst other things. The two countries you listed along with most of the rest of the Muslim countries are viewed as typical Islamic countries by the rest of the world. If Islam and shariah law are supposed to be great and good than why is it that most of these countries are back wards and violent. The excuses I hear are:

1) These are local and tribal issues and most Muslims don't think that way.
2) Colonialism is responsible for the situation in these countries.
3) Other religions have the same problems. While it's fair to compare your religion to other similar religions there are really no great examples of an integrated Christian government unless you want to pick Vatican City and thereís not a lot of violence or revolution going on there?


So, my question is, and Iím not being sarcastic:

Where is this ideal Islamic country that you and others describe? With out an example you have no more credibility than any other person preaching their peaceful religian. The world isnít going to come running to become like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Somalia, or Egypt.

We have it pretty good here in the west and I don't see the need to start experimenting with our system.
Well said!
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Old 08-18-2011, 06:02 PM
 
40,099 posts, read 26,767,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are no Islamic Nations. Only countries the Western world has labelled as being Islamic. There are countries that are predominately Muslim, but that does not make them Islamic.

The only way an Islamic Nation is possible is to be a Caliphate. There will be no Caliphate again until the Birth of the Mehdi and the return of Jesus(as). We believe Sharia to be God(swt) ordered law and it can only be implemented by one truly chosen by God(swt) Most of us believe that will require the return of Jesus(as)
We can approximate Shariah in terms of Civil Law, but for criminal law there is no consensus over which school of Islamic Jurisprudence is the best judge of Shariah. So far the only agreement is the maximum punishment allowed for the 5 Hadd laws. But there is much debate over when and how the maximum penalty is determined. Most of us who adhere to the Maliki school of Jurisprudence will argue that there has never been a case with satisfactory proof to warrant the maximum penalty for any of the hadd laws.
When I speak of an Islamic Nation I am usually meaning the ideal, which does not exist today.
Ideal Schmideal . . . there is no justification or excuse for implementing ANY religious laws enforceable by human beings, PERIOD! If they are God's laws . . . let Him enforce them . . . if He is not impotent. There can be no excuse for forcing anyone to adhere to religious laws . . . only secular ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
There are no Islamic Nations. Only countries the Western world has labeled as being Islamic."
I would say that it is not just the Western world that shares this view. Even many Muslims consider Saudi Arabia an Islamic Country.
I would still like to see someone point to evidence on a country wide level that would indicate that Islam is more beneficial to the state than a sectarian or religious country of another faith.
I have seen the good deeds, helping the poor that all religions including Islam practice. I just don't see any evidence at a larger scale that Islam and many other religions can work in a successful country.
There should never be ANY theocracies . . . just civilized societies. Theocracies are anachronistic and barbaric throwbacks to ancient ignorance that violate every tenet of free societies.
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Old 08-18-2011, 06:29 PM
 
Location: USA
19,823 posts, read 14,724,130 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Ideal Schmideal . . . there is no justification or excuse for implementing ANY religious laws enforceable by human beings, PERIOD! If they are God's laws . . . let Him enforce them . . . if He is not impotent. There can be no excuse for forcing anyone to adhere to religious laws . . . only secular ones.
There should never be ANY theocracies . . . just civilized societies. Theocracies are anachronistic and barbaric throwbacks to ancient ignorance that violate every tenet of free societies.
"Amen Brother" or on a sectarian level "Right on Bro!"

I am just now seeing the light.

I think on a local/personal level religion and their humanitarian deeds achieve their "Ideal". On a larger level, organized religions have 1000's of years to demonstrate their inability to be practiced with out causing harm to others

Unfortunately: The countries of the world that are the most desirable to live in are Sectarian or moving in that direction (Hopefully). Religion to religion and inter-religous conflicts are could very well ruin it for the rest of us!

And of course the definition of Insanity applies: "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einstein
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Old 08-18-2011, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,968 posts, read 22,141,102 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are no Muslim State were it is illegal to be a non-Muslim. But there are several in which a non-Muslim can not hold citizenship. In an Islamic Nation it is illegal to promote a religion other than Islam. The Islamic nations are quite small in both area and population. The largest being Saudi Arabia, which is roughly 10 times the size of Utah in area and population. It is also similar in climate, but a bit harsher desert climate and nearly 3/4 of the land is uninhabitable. It is not a true Islamic Nation but a Monarchy, however the official religion is Islam. Other faiths can live there, but they are not permitted to proselytize their faith to Muslims. There are Dhimmi sections set aside for those who are not Muslim, non-Muslims are not required to live in those sections, but if they live outside of them, they have to abide by Islamic law. they pretty much are free to do as they choose in the Dhimmi sections. Non Muslims do have to pay a Dhimmi tax similar to income Tax. but they do not pay the Zakkat tax Muslims have to pay, which is usually a higher tax than the Dhimmi tax. Also they are exempt from military duty and any state expenses that apply only to Muslims.

In an Islamic nation it is impossible to separate government from religion, as Islam does not recognize man made governments. In fact if Islam could be world wide, there would be no Nations. Each person would be obligated to simply follow the Qur'an. Shariah law is greatly misunderstood. true shariah can only exist under a Caliphate and none exists. We believe there will not be another Caliphate until the birth of the Mehdi and the return of Jesus(as) at which time the Mehdi and Jesus(as) will destroy the anti-Christ and establish a true caliphate.

Most Muslims living in non-Islamic nations understand they have to live by majority rule and follow the laws of the land. You can not have an Islamic Nation unless the country is virtually 100% Muslim. the closest we can ever hope for in a non-Muslim majority country is the acceptance of the Shariah Civil laws and applicable only if all parties involved are Muslim.

As for the forms of worship, Islam does not forbid people to practice other faiths but it does forbid attempts to convert Muslims.

One of the American Dhimmi sections of Riyadh Saudi Arabia:



Here is a brief explanation about Shariah law and what it actually is:

This is from my web site.

Sharia
Thanks, Woodrow.
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Old 08-18-2011, 07:00 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,745,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
There are no Islamic Nations. Only countries the Western world has labeled as being Islamic."

I would say that it is not just the Western world that shares this view. Even many Muslims consider Saudi Arabia an Islamic Country.

I would still like to see someone point to evidence on a country wide level that would indicate that Islam is more beneficial to the state than a sectarian or religious country of another faith.

I have seen the good deeds, helping the poor that all religions including Islam practice. I just don't see any evidence at a larger scale that Islam and many other religions can work in a successful country.
I think that Woodrow believes in secular Islam, and will faithfully wait for Jesus' Caliphate instead of pretending that any other being can or will establish a legitimately Muslim society. This is the controversy between labeling Nations as "Christian" or "Islamic/Muslim".

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 08-18-2011 at 07:10 PM..
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Old 08-18-2011, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,378,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Most Religious laws are very much the same as the laws of most secular nations. Things such as murder, robbery, kidnapping are illegal virtually every place. Yes, most religions do have restrictions (laws) specific to the religion. I do agree those should not be enforceable to those not of the same belief.

Would a system in which everybody has the same secular laws, but religious courts be given authority to enforce religious laws for members of their faith, be a feasible system?
The problem is with those who are "devoutly" atheistic. which you would no doubt subjugate by forceful means. Two options: 1) believe and be in the faith, or 2) we'll kill you as an infidel. Correct or no?

The obvious problem with that is that an individual's natural curiosity, inventiveness and desire to learn (witness any Western child's vigorous enthusiasm to learn the various science disciplines, for example) is strictly repressed under all religions, and forcibly so under Islam. This has resulted in the total stagnation of any recent scientific advances (within the last 150 years or so at least...) under Islam, despite the crowing about how they used to be (yes, about 500 years ago perhaps...) a technically advanced culture.

To wit: there are no space, underwater, or even terrestrial exploration teams or efforts funded by the usual suspect Islamic governments. No trips to Antarctica, where they should have their own dedicated Arctic research station. No nuclear physics experiments except in the design of bombs and ultimate weaponry to smite the infidel Israel and the West. No considered and detailed interest in the cosmos and astrophysics. No medical breakthroughs coming out of an Iranian Republic medical university. No working on DNA, bio-chemistry, etc. No Nobel Prize winning Islamic biological scientists. Nothing, nada, zip, except some archeological studies aimed at glorifying an ancient culture.

Instead, the typical ME state buys it's technology (with oil monies extorted from us Western consumers, for now) from Russia, China, the US or some other state willing to sell it's defence and war technologies. Given the rise in aggressive temperament of those ME states, I'd be surprised if the UN and other bodies don't crack down on such sales in the future, resulting in an other "golden era of technical stagnation" forced on the ever-warlike Muslim nations. Especially since they do deserve it.

Because, after all, those of us who do understand the true value and rewards of scientific pursuits, who do value new-found knowledge and the improvement of the human condition, are considered shirkers, infidels, and unworthy of even being alive. Eventually, people like me would be doomed to die at the hands of the crowds of shreiking, stone- or sword-carrying minions.

Yessiree; it's all quite appealing I'd say (), and frankly, you'll have a tough time ever inflicting or enforcing such a deen on the West. We will rise up from our current over-fed apathy, esp. in Europe, soon enough, and reject your pious but intolerant approach. Anders Breivik was just the beginning of the reaction, though far less violent than what the fanatical fringe of Islam has already demo'd in the London tubes, in Spain, and on 9/11. His was quite tame by comparison, wouldn't you agree, and he actually has a bit of a growing fan club already. Imagine that!

And don't forget, when organized at the state supported military level, a decidedly "anti-radical Islam" movement will have all that modern "rejection technology" at their disposal.

Well, it's just some thoughts for your valued and thoughtful consideration! I'd like to peacefully suggest that you call it quits on proselytizing and forcing acceptance of your wild ideas, and that you try to keep your religion to yourself, like all religions should be kept. But I know that's a hopeless suggestion; I've read enough of your ideological "tracts". You all have your goals and intentions, and you are all apparently willing to die for them, in search of virgins.. (A bit sexist, wouldn't you agree? But then, that's just another key element of your most cherished beliefs; to subjugate women. sigh...)

See: Woodrow's telling comment above: "Each person would be obligated to simply follow the Qur'an." . Nice, and a telling commentary. What if I don't want to ,and what if I live in a free country? Obviously I cannot move to Iran and openly express my ideas on a soapbox in the town park. Can you imagine? Yikes! My head'd be on the street before you knew it!

Last edited by rifleman; 08-18-2011 at 07:25 PM..
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Old 08-19-2011, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
The problem is with those who are "devoutly" atheistic. which you would no doubt subjugate by forceful means. Two options: 1) believe and be in the faith, or 2) we'll kill you as an infidel. Correct or no?


See: Woodrow's telling comment above: "Each person would be obligated to simply follow the Qur'an." . Nice, and a telling commentary. What if I don't want to ,and what if I live in a free country? Obviously I cannot move to Iran and openly express my ideas on a soapbox in the town park. Can you imagine? Yikes! My head'd be on the street before you knew it!
It is permissible for a person to be non-Muslim in an Islamic Nation. But it is not permissible to try to convert Muslims. Kind of a moot point as no Islamic Nation exists. There won't be one until the coming of the Mehdi and the return of Jesus(as). Feel free to take that up with Jesus(as) at that time.

Since the Caliphate is under the direct order of God(swt), That is who to file any complaints with.

As for Iran, I would probably be in just as much trouble trying to express my beliefs as a Sunni.
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Old 08-19-2011, 09:07 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Did Muhammud's father and uncle convert to Islam? if not, were they martyred?
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Old 08-19-2011, 11:08 AM
 
9,536 posts, read 4,876,259 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are no Islamic Nations. Only countries the Western world has labelled as being Islamic. There are countries that are predominately Muslim, but that does not make them Islamic.

The only way an Islamic Nation is possible is to be a Caliphate. There will be no Caliphate again until the Birth of the Mehdi and the return of Jesus(as). We believe Sharia to be God(swt) ordered law and it can only be implemented by one truly chosen by God(swt) Most of us believe that will require the return of Jesus(as)

We can approximate Shariah in terms of Civil Law, but for criminal law there is no consensus over which school of Islamic Jurisprudence is the best judge of Shariah. So far the only agreement is the maximum punishment allowed for the 5 Hadd laws. But there is much debate over when and how the maximum penalty is determined. Most of us who adhere to the Maliki school of Jurisprudence will argue that there has never been a case with satisfactory proof to warrant the maximum penalty for any of the hadd laws.

When I speak of an Islamic Nation I am usually meaning the ideal, which does not exist today.
You're being too clever, fooling no one, or very few.

Claiming the phrase 'Islamic nation' is a Western world label is false. Need I list nations that refer to themselves as 'The Islamic Republic of ___, or declares itself Islamic through a legal code.

You're certainly free to use 'Islamic nation' as an ideal. I think most people on earth, particularly non-Muslims, differ with you.
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Old 08-19-2011, 12:35 PM
 
Location: USA
19,823 posts, read 14,724,130 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzarama View Post
You're being too clever, fooling no one, or very few.

Claiming the phrase 'Islamic nation' is a Western world label is false. Need I list nations that refer to themselves as 'The Islamic Republic of ___, or declares itself Islamic through a legal code.

You're certainly free to use 'Islamic nation' as an ideal. I think most people on earth, particularly non-Muslims, differ with you.
Looks like a ***, calls itself a ***, taste and smells like a ***....Must be a sheep! Sorry I jest!
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