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Old 09-16-2011, 09:56 AM
 
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The problem is the general population tends to group the actions of some people as the actions of all of Islam. The result being some people now see all Muslims as being something to be hated.

The solution is that we all need to learn is that each person is an individual and the actions of a few does not mean it represents all.

It is a 2 way street on the other side we Muslims need to see that because some Americans hate all Muslims does not mean all Americans do.



I think the fundamental question to us outside of Islam is "What makes this religion vs. others as being so easy to misintrepid?"

I know you as a pacifist, may not be able to get into the head of an Islamic extremist, but there is something in the intrepertation of Islam that is different than the other main stream religions of the world.
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Old 09-16-2011, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
As far as I know the Terrorist are usually screaming "Allah Akbar" as they are flying their planes, bombing churches, bombing Mosques and killing others based on there religious belief. As I pointed out before when Christians start blowing up Mosques screaming "Jesus Save" Muslims will see why "We" the rest of the world see Islam as a threat.
We look at Islam as a Religion that can not even live in peace within itself. Like many have said here Islam is probably at the point Christianity was at during the time of the inquisition.
Thank you for providing yet another proof of the premise the OP is based upon.

[quote]I don't view Islam on a whole is really much different than Judaism or Christianity. But in the way that it is practiced by many it is a threat to itself and to the rest of the world...[quote]
Between the two statements here, the first sentence is a lie. Sort of "I don't hate you, but..."

Quote:
Whether the enemy be identified as secularist, Buddhist, Hindus, Jewish or Christian. We all see it as a threat because we see people who attack us screaming their Deities name when they blow their selves up.
The Norwegian guy was a Christian terrorist. No? He babbled a lot about the religion before going about the cold blooded massacre (potentially during as well).

Quote:
Maybe we should have sat down with Bin Laden or one of his crazy groupies to understand him a little better? I can see the conversation now: "Say Bin, why do you send people to attack us?". "Oh, you don't like us supporting Israel or having bases in Saudi Arabia". "Well, we will just stop supporting the Israelis and pull our bases and planes out of Saudi Arabia.". "Will that make you happy?".
Quote:
Of course trying to understand a crazy person and a religious Zealot is impossible.
I think it is always worth a try, it is why I engage in debates in this forum.

But, as far as your other argument is concerned, it illustrate the intent to cover up the real issue with a "convenience", for political and religious reasons.
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Old 09-16-2011, 10:10 AM
 
Location: USA
19,700 posts, read 14,682,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Thank you for providing yet another proof of the premise the OP is based upon.



The Norwegian guy was a Christian terrorist. No? He babbled a lot about the religion before going about the cold blooded massacre (potentially during as well).

[color=black][font=Verdana]
I think it is always worth a try, it is why I engage in debates in this forum.

But, as far as your other argument is concerned, it illustrate the intent to cover up the real issue with a "convenience", for political and religious reasons.

"Between the two statements here, the first sentence is a lie. Sort of "I don't hate you, but..."

That was not the way it was intended. As I just posted I would like to understand why this religion has been so easily misintrepeded and hijacked. The Norway attack was one crazy guy and the people killed weren't Muslim anyway, so it is not a fair camparison.

Actually, I'm sure it is impossible to ask you to get in the mind of a religous extremist regardless of the religion? If I could find a Christian or Budist "potenitial" sucide bomber I probably couldn't understand him either?

Last edited by LS Jaun; 09-16-2011 at 10:27 AM..
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Old 09-16-2011, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
I think the fundamental question to us outside of Islam is "What makes this religion vs. others as being so easy to misintrepid?"

I know you as a pacifist, may not be able to get into the head of an Islamic extremist, but there is something in the interpretation of Islam that is different than the other main stream religions of the world.
Islam is much more dependent on personal responsibility. there are no central leaders and no centralized teachings. We all follow the same fundementals of Faith and the same pillars of Islam. but it is our own responsibility to seek learning and to always verify what we learn. We have no ordained clergy and nothing that resembles a uniform teaching. typically a Muslim first learns from his mother and then seeks further knowledge. Usually by following the madhab of the Mosque he most often goes to. There are 4 recognized Madhabs for the sunni. we try to learn a little of each and follow the one most prevalent were we live. But it all comes down to personal learning and personal responsibility for what we learn. We have personal responsibility for finding our sources of learning and to verify the truth and validity of our sources.
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Old 09-16-2011, 10:41 AM
 
Location: USA
19,700 posts, read 14,682,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Islam is much more dependent on personal responsibility. there are no central leaders and no centralized teachings. We all follow the same fundementals of Faith and the same pillars of Islam. but it is our own responsibility to seek learning and to always verify what we learn. We have no ordained clergy and nothing that resembles a uniform teaching. typically a Muslim first learns from his mother and then seeks further knowledge. Usually by following the madhab of the Mosque he most often goes to. There are 4 recognized Madhabs for the sunni. we try to learn a little of each and follow the one most prevalent were we live. But it all comes down to personal learning and personal responsibility for what we learn. We have personal responsibility for finding our sources of learning and to verify the truth and validity of our sources.
Thank you for the enlightenment in your area of knowledge. Thinking about the question I posed would be analogous to querying someone about world peace. Everybody has a small piece of the puzzle but there is no one that has all of the answers.
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Old 09-16-2011, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,885,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
That was not the way it was intended. As I just posted I would like to understand why this religion has been so easily misintrepeded and hijacked. The Norway attack was one crazy guy and the people killed weren't Muslim anyway, so it is not a fair camparison.
Not to you because consistency cannot be offer the convenience you seek. This terrorist trumpeted his religion just as wildly as the terrorists involved on 9/11 did yet, the former should not be seen as a Christian but the latter were about spreading Islam.

Quote:
Actually, I'm sure it is impossible to ask you to get in the mind of a religous extremist regardless of the religion? If I could find a Christian or Budist "potenitial" sucide bomber I probably couldn't understand him either?
While you may not be aware of claimed "perfection" of suicide bombings by Sri Lankan Tamils (they got one of India's prime ministers as well), at least I hope you're aware of bombings by "Christian" terrorist groups in Ireland?
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Old 09-16-2011, 11:00 AM
 
Location: USA
19,700 posts, read 14,682,379 times
Reputation: 12723
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Not to you because consistency cannot be offer the convenience you seek. This terrorist trumpeted his religion just as wildly as the terrorists involved on 9/11 did yet, the former should not be seen as a Christian but the latter were about spreading Islam.


While you may not be aware of claimed "perfection" of suicide bombings by Sri Lankan Tamils (they got one of India's prime ministers as well), at least I hope you're aware of bombings by "Christian" terrorist groups in Ireland?
"at least I hope you're aware of bombings by "Christian" terrorist groups in Ireland" Of course, and I have been to Ireland which has changed for the better over the last 25 years. There are plenty of examples of other people around the world engaging in sucide bombings, it's just more prevalent amongst Muslims in the Middle East. It's obviously not an issue here and that may be more socioeconomic than anything else. Europe is another issue entirely as they have been immigrating impoverished people from Muslim countries for decades. Will we have the same issues as they do with our most recent immigration waves? It's entirely possible.
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Old 09-16-2011, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,885,911 times
Reputation: 12178
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
"at least I hope you're aware of bombings by "Christian" terrorist groups in Ireland" Of course, and I have been to Ireland which has changed for the better over the last 25 years. There are plenty of examples of other people around the world engaging in sucide bombings, it's just more prevalent amongst Muslims in the Middle East. It's obviously not an issue here and that may be more socioeconomic than anything else. Europe is another issue entirely as they have been immigrating impoverished people from Muslim countries for decades. Will we have the same issues as they do?
Your experience doesn't help address your denial, even as you accept the premise that the OP is about... proving that you're among those Americans who would use any excuse, no matter how ridiculous.
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Old 09-16-2011, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
"at least I hope you're aware of bombings by "Christian" terrorist groups in Ireland" Of course, and I have been to Ireland which has changed for the better over the last 25 years. There are plenty of examples of other people around the world engaging in sucide bombings, it's just more prevalent amongst Muslims in the Middle East. It's obviously not an issue here and that may be more socioeconomic than anything else. Europe is another issue entirely as they have been immigrating impoverished people from Muslim countries for decades. Will we have the same issues as they do with our most recent immigration waves? It's entirely possible.
You do have to look at the reasons the Muslims in Europe migrated there. They were facing poverty at home. In the USA most Muslims who come here were financially successful in their homeland. Many come here for the purpose of education. Over all Muslims in the USA are highly educated and have a higher average income than the National average.

This may change as the recent wars are resulting in more immigrants from war torn impoverished countries. They are coming here to escape poverty and only find they are just as impoverished here, than if they had stayed in their homelands. It comes to them as a shock and a feeling of having been mislead.

Quote:
  • 67% of American Muslims have a Bachelor’s degree or higher

  • 44% of Americans have a Bachelor’s degree or higher3

  • The Variance for Advanced Degrees is even greater.
  • One in ten American Muslim HH has a physician / medical doctor


American Muslims are Affluent

  • U.S. Average income is $42,158 per year (U.S. Census 2000)
  • 66% of American Muslim HH’s earn over $50,000 / year
  • 26% of American Muslim HH’s earn over $100,000 / year

SOURCE
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Old 09-16-2011, 11:41 AM
 
Location: USA
19,700 posts, read 14,682,379 times
Reputation: 12723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You do have to look at the reasons the Muslims in Europe migrated there. They were facing poverty at home. In the USA most Muslims who come here were financially successful in their homeland. Many come here for the purpose of education. Over all Muslims in the USA are highly educated and have a higher average income than the National average.

This may change as the recent wars are resulting in more immigrants from war torn impoverished countries. They are coming here to escape poverty and only find they are just as impoverished here, than if they had stayed in their homelands. It comes to them as a shock and a feeling of having been mislead.

SOURCE
Yep, I agree with the reasons above. And most anybody who does well is integrated into their enviorment and wants to maintain the status quo.

Bringing Impoverished people into this country will most like yield results similar to what Europe is seeing. Right, wrong or indifferent, poor immigrants will feel cheated, the poor locals will feel feel left out, the rest of us will feel indifferent until we feel threatened to the point of retaliation. I'm sure we will not became a Syria or Egypt but we could see riots like the UK.
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