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Old 11-03-2011, 10:17 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
I notice that all the adherents of Islam who post here lose most of their tolerance (and the peaceful words all vanish in the breeze) as soon as someone mentions the word "Israel." Then all of a sudden all they're interested in is retribution consisting of death on a large scale.

The other sore spot, for me, is the oppression and persecution of gay people in the more strict Muslim countries. Gays (all LGBT people) are tortured and murdered in Muslim lands.
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Old 11-03-2011, 11:34 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 21,972,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Perhaps it [the Muhammad caricature] is because we see or believe they are done with the intent of arousing anger. I do not advocate any violence towards those who do such cartoons, but I do feel I have a right to criticize them and express my dislike of them in any legal. peaceful manner.
I don't think that was the intent. How can you be so sure it was? I was rather surprised when you became so angry when it was mentioned earlier.
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Old 11-04-2011, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
I don't think that was the intent. How can you be so sure it was? I was rather surprised when you became so angry when it was mentioned earlier.
I do get angry. But I vent my anger with words and legal peaceful protest.

I will agree it is possible that there are many not made for the express reason to anger, I have seen some that most probably are for comedy. There have been many cartoons about Muslims that do seem to be for comedy only. Any thing offensive about them does not seem to be intentional and are simply poking fun at things we do that probably seem strange to non-Muslims.

However, many of the cartoons are extremely vile, usually with sexual obscenities. Those of us who administer Islamic sites and/or forums run a constant battle with people who try to plaster them all over our sites. Quite often it seems to be planned assaults with a rush of people coming online and posting hundreds within a matter of minutes. It does get irritating.

Yes, they have become a bit of an irritent to me. If my anger is justified that will depend on one's opinion. I and everybody I personally know will not tolerate any violent reaction to them. But we do reserve the right to acknowledge they make us angry and do remove them from our sites as soon as they are seen. Fotunatly on the sites I have an administrative role on, we do have it in place that images posted by new members are not visible to the members until approved by the Mods or Admins.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:54 PM
 
912 posts, read 720,380 times
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There are a few things that are troubling about the Islamic Doctrine :

1) From what I understand in surah 109... Allah is making a promise to torture one of Mohamads earthly enemies, theres even a graphic depiction of the people, Abu and his wife, of the torture Allah has in store for precisely these people. I find this to be, as recited in truth by members, somewhat of a menace to any peaceful platform anywhere, and very contradictory

2) there are also questionable ideas , such as angels are afraid of dogs and pictures, doing something left before right (footsteps) is a sin, followed by warnings...extreme legalism, sneezes are satantic, the devil breaks the wind when the sound of the Koran is heard so, he doesn't have to listen to it. Another chant.......


"Order them to do the right before the left
If they do not they surely commit a heinous, grievous, mortal sin."

Are these factual items part of the daily chanting prayer recital? Apparently they are to my understanding....how can these things at face value have anything to do with mans best interests or a God ? Miraculous .... How basically ?....

Simply looking at understanding how all the Muslims think and interpet this world re religious influence in the chanting of these things... heres another.... The Koran Canonical Form:

"Order my slaves who have faith in submission in Islam
To seek refuge in Allah when they yawn
In the Most Merciful to prevent Shaytan from farting at them,
And to greatly glorify Allah with "ALLAHU AKBER!" when they sneeze."

its seems difficult to understand how any influence in courts, social expectations , law ect ect ect can be interested in suggestions which are rooted in these idea's....unless I'm missing something which I'm completely open to ... simply curious as to what its all about.

Last edited by Blue Hue; 11-04-2011 at 08:23 PM..
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Old 11-04-2011, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Very good things to bring up. I appreciate sincere questions and honest disagreement based on facts. You asked some sincere questions that I can see can be confusing at the least or even objectionable for many.

I will do my best to answer. But first I want to put out a few Islamic concepts. We see different levels of obligation, and concepts of Good/Bad, Right/Evil allowed/forbidden. Islam is not always the is right, that is wrong. We see different things as being at different levels.

there are those things that are an obligation. We are to them with no excuses for not doing them such as the 5 Daily prayers. Yet at the same time we see no sin if a person can not do what is obligatory because of reasons beyond his control.

We see things are are desired we do. There may even be benefits in doing them. But it is no sin if we do not do them. Such as following all of the Sunnah of the Sahabi, the first followers of Muhammad(PBUH). While the sahabah did wear sandals and if possible it would be nice if we also did so. but, it would be fool hardy, and dangerous to do so up here in a North Dakota winter with temperatures at 50 below zero or colder. Good to do, but no sin if we don't.

Then we just have things that are permissible to do. No biggy one way or the other if we do them or don't do them. Anything we are allowed to do is Halal

We also see some things as Makrouf (Makhoof) Highly adviced not to do. but no sin if we do them. this is the range of things that may be obnoxious to others or even offensive, but still not sinful. ie Cracking your knuckles when in a crowded elevator.

The there are things that are forbidden, this is anything that is haram. such as we are forbidden to drink alcohol. Yet if for some reason we needed to to keep from dieing there would be no sin in doing so. such as getting lost in the Sahara and no sign of water, but you find a bottle of wine a legionnaire lost. It would be permissable to drink enough to sustain life, but not beyond that amount.

Now to face your question. My long essay was/is for the purpose of giving understanding of some of my answers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post
There are a few things that are troubling about the Islamic Doctrine :

1) From what I understand in surah 109... Allah is making a promise to torture one of Mohamads earthly enemies, theres even a graphic depiction of the people, Abu and his wife, of the torture Allah has in store for precisely these people. I find this to be, as recited in truth by members, somewhat of a menace to any peaceful platform anywhere, and very contradictory
I think you have confused the surahs 109 reads:

Surah 109. Al-Kafirun (The Disbelievers, Atheists)
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.



I believe you mean:


Surah 111. Al-Masad (Palm Fibre, The Flame)

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

1. Perish the hands of the Father of Flame! Perish he!

2. No profit to him from all his wealth, and all his gains!

3. Burnt soon will he be in a Fire of Blazing Flame!

4. His wife shall carry the (crackling) wood - As fuel!-

5. A twisted rope of palm-leaf fibre round her (own) neck!

But I do not see how that relates to your question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post
2) there are also questionable ideas , such as angels are afraid of dogs and pictures,
That is from the ahadith. It is a reliable Hadith that we take to be authenticate and that Muhammad(PBUH) did say Angels will not enter a house that has a dog or a picture of humans. While we do know that Muhammad(PBUH) said those words and it was witnessed by Aisha(if memory serves me) We do know he said that when on a day the Angel Gabrial had said he would come to speak to him and did not show, Muhammad found a dog that Aisha had bought into the house, and said those words



Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post
doing something left before right (footsteps) is a sin, followed by warnings...extreme legalism, sneezes are satantic, the devil breaks the wind when the sound of the Koran is heard so, he doesn't have to listen to it.
"Order them to do the right before the left
If they do not they surely commit a heinous, grievous, mortal sin."
See were I speak about Sunnah above


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post
Are these idea's part of the daily prayer recital? Apparently they are to my understanding....how can these things at face value have anything to do with mans best interests or a God ? Miraculous .... How basically ?....
Actually the 5 prayers are very short and very simple. Our personal prayers we do in our own words and however we are comfortable. We are not as dogmatic as many assume we are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post
Simply looking at understanding how all the Muslims think and interpet this world re religious influence in the chanting of these things... heres another.... The Koran Canonical Form:

"Order my slaves who have faith in submission in Islam
To seek refuge in Allah when they yawn
In the Most Merciful to prevent Shaytan from farting at them,
And to greatly glorify Allah with "ALLAHU AKBER!" when they sneeze."

I'm sorry but its difficult to understand how any influence , in courts, social expectations , law ect ect ect can be interested in idea's which are rooted in the Islamic Belief System....maybe its just opinion and the querys above have mature explanations, but for now, I think the belief needs a little fine tuning before anything happens, including growth. Chanting all these things will have an effect on the individual
A good bit of what you asked about is sunnah and while we are encouraged to follow the Sahabi, we are not going to be condemned or even chided for not doing so. However, there are 2 minority extremist groups that contend the sunnah are obligatory and we have to do so. We do have some people who do seem to be a bit puritanical. All the more power to them, but they do not have the authority to demand others do the same.

On a personal note I do follow the sunnah to a large extent. I do not feel obligated to do so and being in an isolated area nobody will ever know if I am or am not following any sunnah. I do so because I am isolated and to try to live a sunnah life, makes me feel closer to Islam. My choice, because it makes me feel good. It is not going to get me into Heaven or anything. I like doing such.
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Old 11-05-2011, 02:03 AM
 
912 posts, read 720,380 times
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Thanks again for reply, especially in the daily prayer. Not knowing the language and reading some of the belief, people would assume the chanting we always hear and see would contain many of the verse's in the
surah's.

I didn't know there was a discretion in the belief as you mention regarding the surah's. So really, people on line checking out these sites are defenseless in getting an idea of whats going on, due to language and the added range in the Islamic belief.

I noticed on another thread of your groups involvement in charity and the open gesture regardless of belief and was very happy for everyone to understand the sincerity and good will. Ive always believed the genuineness reaching out to others in need self explanatory, in the expression of a wholesome interior life. Moderation in just about everything physical and spiritual seems to promote the intended good.

If someone was to say, write a fictional end story as to how society came to completely resolve all tensions within a nation re multi-cultural issues and beliefs, I think moderation & charity would comprise the leading roles. Thanks and I've got a new responcibility for a bit here and
will look forward to reading some of these threads a little later...towards nt mos

Last edited by Blue Hue; 11-05-2011 at 02:15 AM..
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Old 11-05-2011, 05:31 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Hue View Post
Thanks again for reply, especially in the daily prayer. Not knowing the language and reading some of the belief, people would assume the chanting we always hear and see would contain many of the verse's in the
surah's.
I just realized what you are refering to as chanting would be the Athan(Adhan, Azahn) the call to prayer. That is said very loudly by the Muezzin from the minnerat of the Mosques. It is to be loud enough to be heard by all within walking distance of the Mosque and said at a slow enough pace so that a person walking to the Mosque will get to the Mosque before it ends and be at the Mosque in time to do do ablution (Wudu) before the prayer begins. The prayer it self is very quiet, spoken with a quiet voice

Muslims moving from an Islamic nation to a secular Nation often miss the sound of the Athan. sort of like Christians who move to non-Christian Nations miss the sound of church Bells. In Islam we are forbidden to use Musical instruments except for the Duff and Drum. We consider bells to be a musical instrument so our call to prayer is vocal. But as I mentioned it must be said slowly to allow a person to walk to the Mosque in an unhurried manner before it ends or if at home to prepare for prayer before it ends.

The Athan is quite beautiful when understood.

Here is the Athan for Fajr prayer along with the Translation. Fajr is our first fard(obligatory) prayer of the day it is said at first light when there is sufficient light outside to distinguish a white thread from a black thread, but before the edge of the sun is seen breaking the horizon.



The prayer itself is slow and quiet. takes about 5 minutes. Here it is with translation:



As I said we do say additional prayers during the day as we find appropriate and have time to do. These are said wherever we are and may be in our own language and words. We also have many supplications that many of us say often. These are sunnah and are things we know Muhammad(PBUH) and the Sabah said. such as saying alhhamdillulah (God bless you/ Praise God)) when somebody sneezes.

a bit of trivia. You will find many different English spellings of Arabic words. That is because many Arabic letters have no similar sounds in English Such as the letter Dhal which is the second letter in the word Athan. It has a sound that is sort of like D TH Z or DZ but not quite like any. So in trying to spell it phonetically you will find spellings such as Athan, Adhan, Azahn Adzahn We generally use what we think sounds closest to how we pronounce it. I usually use Athan, but many more people do use Adhan. with a few using Azahn or Adzahn
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