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Old 09-20-2011, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertsun41 View Post
The only thing allah sheds on us are his instructions to throw hand grenades at anyone you don't like. You seem to be avoiding all the quotes from your cult book which order killings and rape by your hero. No explanation? Or do you just agree with it.
You are speaking falsely and offering no true statement to agree with. the nonsense you speak of is not in the Qur'an.

They are no ayyats that command us to kill except when needed in defense when attacked. Murder and harming others are among the worse of sins. Even when attacked and fighting in defense we are commanded to always give the enemy the opportunity to surrender and to stop fighting if they cease their attack.

Rape is absolutely forbidden and one of the 4 crimes that can be punished by death.

Where do you keep finding all of that poison you believe is in the Qur'an?

If you have actual statements that back up what you are saying, show them. But, there are no such things in the Qur'an.

Is your faith in your beliefs so weak you can not justify your own beliefs so you attempt to discredit others? Your words show you have no interest in learning, so you resort to attempts at reducing others, to make your own beliefs appear to be better in relation to your lack of belief.
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Old 09-20-2011, 09:06 AM
 
Location: USA
19,887 posts, read 14,751,398 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weaam View Post

september 11 was a U.S. plot
[/quote]

Osama Bin Laden never admitted he was personally responsble for 911 but praised those who did. I would find it difficult to believe he would praise the US government.
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Old 09-20-2011, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Now to begin with the Ahadith, that you believe command us to kill. I notice that like many you choose to use one sentence out of fairly long hadith and assume that is a command. I will begin with Bukhari 52.

Just out of curiosity do you know what the ahadith are and when or how they were compiled?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakraman View Post
Those who turn their back on Islam are to be executed. This is confirmed by the words and deeds of Muhammad. The only freedom of belief in Islam is the freedom to become Muslim.





From the Hadith:

The reason why executing apostates has always been well-ensconced in Islamic law is that there is an indisputable record of Muhammad and his companions doing exactly that according to the reliable Hadith. According to verse 4:80 of the Quran: "Whoso obeyeth the Messenger obeyeth Allah."

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.
To begin with a quick introduction to Muhammad Ibn Ismail Ibn Ibrahim Ibn al-Mughirah Ibn Bardizbah al-Bukhari and how he compiled his collection of ahadith called Sahih Bukhari (Books of Bukhari)

Bukhari lived from 810-870 AD about 200 years after Muhammad. He was a Persian and was raised as a Muslim. He began studying Islam in depth as a Child and became interested in notes many people kept that were believed to have been things said by Muhammad. He began a lifetime goal of collecting and verifying all he could find. He pretty much set the guidelines for the science of hadith. In his life time he collected over 100,000 of these notes and out of those he was able to classify 7,275 as having a level of certainty they were actually said by Muhammad(PBUH) these he arraigned into books as to the topics that seem to have been being discussed. Book 52 is what he believed to have been things Muhammad(PBUH) said while at war.

The Ahadith are not the word of God(swt) but are the words of witnesses and are only as reliable as the memory of the witness. In the event we find a Hadith that seems contrary to the Qur'an we are to follow the Qur'an and not the hadith. Bukhari is accepted by most scholars as being the most reliable collection of Ahadith and there is reasonable certainty that Muhammad(PBUH)actually did say the words attributed to him. But each hadith does carry levels of authenticity and levels of reliability. The Hadith collected by Bukhari do have a very high level of authenticity as Bukhari did verify the Narrator(witness) did know Muhammad(PBUH) and did write down what he believed he heard spoken. The level of reliability is determined by how many people heard the exact same thing. Those with the highest reliability have at least 4 witnesses and all witnesses reported hearing the exact same thing. As the number of witnesses decreases or differ in wording the level of reliability declines.

Hadith 52: 290 has high reliability in that it has been established Ikrima did witness this, however, it has a low level of reliability as Ikrima is the only witness we have a statement from. We really do not know what was meant dy a person who discards his religion. Looking at other hadith that came from the same time:

Quote:
257
Narrated 'Abdullah: During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.

Quote:
258
Narrated Ibn 'Umar: During some of the Ghazawat of Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.

Quote:
259
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle sent us in a mission (i.e. am army-unit) and said, "If you find so-and-so and so-and-so, burn both of them with fire." When we intended to depart, Allah's Apostle said, "I have ordered you to burn so-and-so and so-and-so, and it is none but Allah Who punishes with fire, so, if you find them, kill them."
Note here the only witness Abu Huraira could not remember the name of the people or person.


Quote:
260
Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
Looking at these and the context they were said (during a war battle) it is my opinion the discrding his religion is refering to a Muslim who commits war crimes, not a person who apostates.
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Old 09-20-2011, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
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Continuing on with the ahadith you claim that command us to kill apostates.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakraman View Post
Those who turn their back on Islam are to be executed. This is confirmed by the words and deeds of Muhammad. The only freedom of belief in Islam is the freedom to become Muslim.




From the Hadith:

The reason why executing apostates has always been well-ensconced in Islamic law is that there is an indisputable record of Muhammad and his companions doing exactly that according to the reliable Hadith. According to verse 4:80 of the Quran: "Whoso obeyeth the Messenger obeyeth Allah."


Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."
Book 83 covers the subject of "Blood Money" The compensation a person is to pay another person for wronging him. It has nothing to do with apostasy.

Quote:
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 37:
Narrated Abu Qilaba:
Once 'Umar bin 'Abdul 'Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him. Then he admitted them and (when they came in), he said, "What do you think of Al-Qasama?" They said, "We say that it is lawful to depend on Al-Qasama in Qisas, as the previous Muslim Caliphs carried out Qisas depending on it." Then he said to me, "O Abu Qilaba! What do you say about it?" He let me appear before the people and I said, "O Chief of the Believers! You have the chiefs of the army staff and the nobles of the Arabs. If fifty of them testified that a married man had committed illegal sexual intercourse in Damascus but they had not seen him (doing so), would you stone him?" He said, "No." I said, "If fifty of them testified that a man had committed theft in Hums, would you cut off his hand though they did not see him?" He replied, "No." I said, "By Allah, Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate." Then the people said, "Didn't Anas bin Malik narrate that Allah's Apostle cut off the hands of the thieves, branded their eyes and then, threw them in the sun?" I said, "I shall tell you the narration of Anas. Anas said: "Eight persons from the tribe of 'Ukl came to Allah's Apostle and gave the Pledge of allegiance for Islam (became Muslim). The climate of the place (Medina) did not suit them, so they became sick and complained about that to Allah's Apostle. He said (to them ), "Won't you go out with the shepherd of our camels and drink of the camels' milk and urine (as medicine)?" They said, "Yes." So they went out and drank the camels' milk and urine, and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of Allah's Apostle and took away all the camels. This news reached Allah's Apostle , so he sent (men) to follow their traces and they were captured and brought (to the Prophet). He then ordered to cut their hands and feet, and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, and then he threw them in the sun till they died." I said, "What can be worse than what those people did? They deserted Islam, committed murder and theft."
Then 'Anbasa bin Said said, "By Allah, I never heard a narration like this of today." I said, "O 'Anbasa! You deny my narration?" 'Anbasa said, "No, but you have related the narration in the way it should be related. By Allah, these people are in welfare as long as this Sheikh (Abu Qilaba) is among them." I added, "Indeed in this event there has been a tradition set by Allah's Apostle. The narrator added: Some Ansari people came to the Prophet and discussed some matters with him, a man from amongst them went out and was murdered. Those people went out after him, and behold, their companion was swimming in blood. They returned to Allah's Apostle and said to him, "O Allah's Apostle, we have found our companion who had talked with us and gone out before us, swimming in blood (killed)." Allah's Apostle went out and asked them, "Whom do you suspect or whom do you think has killed him?" They said, "We think that the Jews have killed him." The Prophet sent for the Jews and asked them, "Did you kill this (person)?" They replied, "No." He asked the Al-Ansars, "Do you agree that I let fifty Jews take an oath that they have not killed him?" They said, "It matters little for the Jews to kill us all and then take false oaths." He said, "Then would you like to receive the Diya after fifty of you have taken an oath (that the Jews have killed your man)?" They said, "We will not take the oath." Then the Prophet himself paid them the Diya (Blood-money)." The narrator added, "The tribe of Hudhail repudiated one of their men (for his evil conduct) in the Pre-lslamic period of Ignorance.
Then, at a place called Al-Batha' (near Mecca), the man attacked a Yemenite family at night to steal from them, but a. man from the family noticed him and struck him with his sword and killed him. The tribe of Hudhail came and captured the Yemenite and brought him to 'Umar during the Hajj season and said, "He has killed our companion." The Yemenite said, "But these people had repudiated him (i.e., their companion)." 'Umar said, "Let fifty persons of Hudhail swear that they had not repudiated him." So forty-nine of them took the oath and then a person belonging to them, came from Sham and they requested him to swear similarly, but he paid one-thousand Dirhams instead of taking the oath. They called another man instead of him and the new man shook hands with the brother of the deceased. Some people said, "We and those fifty men who had taken false oaths (Al-Qasama) set out, and when they reached a place called Nakhlah, it started raining so they entered a cave in the mountain, and the cave collapsed on those fifty men who took the false oath, and all of them died except the two persons who had shaken hands with each other. They escaped death but a stone fell on the leg of the brother of the deceased and broke it, whereupon he survived for one year and then died." I further said, "'Abdul Malik bin Marwan sentenced a man to death in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, basing his judgment on Al-Qasama, but later on he regretted that judgment and ordered that the names of the fifty persons who had taken the oath (Al-Qasama), be erased from the register, and he exiled them in Sham."

How can one get from that we are commanded to kill apostates? You really have to do some manipulation to come to that conclusion. Even taking your quote as a stand alone quote (which it is not) You must see that it means Muhammad(PBUH) was acting in self defense:

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:15 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,213 posts, read 11,024,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weaam View Post
..... september 11 was a U.S. plot
Ridiculous! 19 Muslims entered America under false pretenses, hijacked 4 airplanes full of innocent civilians and destroyed billions of dollars in property that they did not own and killed 3000 people against whom the had no complaint. You need to either supply some evidence for what you say or apologize and go away.
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:17 AM
 
148 posts, read 263,762 times
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@ JordanJP

I saw your post and I will come to it later on. Thank you for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
In other words, don't look too closely at what's going on. I can see where you'd appreciate that.
For me, I hope (in case of war) that I fight and get killed, then the one who kill me become a muslim so that we all be together in Heaven.

Prophet Mohammad, peace be upon him, said: "Don't hope to meet the enemy, but if you meet them, then forbear".

And he also said: "I hope that I fight in God's way and get killed, then I fight and get killed, then I fight and get killed" Ten times he said so.

But of course, the merciful police has to be harsh with criminals and not allow them to win, so that mercy will be maintained in its suitable position.

Might and Wisdom are qualities of Peace.

There are some interesting secrets in Islam, but they should be kept as secrets. Only the sincere ones will discover them and have their special joy.

Those who waste their time searching in Islam for things to attack God's religion, are blocked from finding such secrets eventhough they are very close to them.

Have you seen him who takes his own lust (vain desires) as his god? and All‚h knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart, and put a cover on his sight. Who then will guide him after All‚h? Will you not then remember? (23)
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:23 AM
 
Location: 8 million + strong
87 posts, read 74,350 times
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Smile Sharing peace and prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by a slave of Allah View Post
He is Allah, there is no god but He; Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is the Compassionate, the Merciful. (22) He is Allah, there is no god but He, the King, the Holy, the Author of Safety, the Peace, the Protector, the Mighty, the Mender, the Majestic. Hallowed be Allah from all that they associate! (23) He is Allah, the Creator, the Maker, the Fashioner; His are the excellent names. Him hallowes whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth, and He is the Mighty, the Wise. (24)

Prophet Mohammad, peace be upon him, used to say after each prayer:

"Allahumma Anta Assalam, wa minka Assalam. Tabarakta yathal Jalali wal Ekram"

"O Allah! You are the Peace, and from You comes the peace. Blessed be You! O Owner of Majesty and Nobility"

So the Hell is to be away from God.

I would like to ask our christian brothers and sisters if they believe the same about God or not? Other religions are also invited to this celebration and discussion.

Peace.
Peace brother 'a slave to Allah'

I hope that your prayers are being answered. Because I too want greater peace within to be for the people of the world because we are all in it for this one time.

Too bad death happens too many times to count.

Make your life count by being one at peace. God is one and I don't think we can find him entirely in death.

That's my thoughts on this matter.

Thanks.
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Ridiculous! 19 Muslims entered America under false pretenses, hijacked 4 airplanes full of innocent civilians and destroyed billions of dollars in property that they did not own and killed 3000 people against whom the had no complaint. You need to either supply some evidence for what you say or apologize and go away.
There will be many questions left unanswered. It is doubtful we will ever know the truth. A video I found that raises some questions.



As for 19 Muslims involved. How do you know all 19 were Muslims? There were many reports that the day before they were seen bar hopping and celebrating. Muslims do not drink alcohol nor listen to instrumental music. While it seems they all had Arabic names, not all people with Arabic names are Muslim, the majority of people in the USA with Arab ancestry, are Christian. You can not tell a person's religion by their name. See HERE

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 09-20-2011 at 12:26 PM..
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:19 PM
 
52 posts, read 47,831 times
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[quote=Woodrow LI;20960016]There will be many questions left unanswered. It is doubtful we will ever know the truth. A video I found that raises some questions.

[quote]


We know the truth. It is because of Muhammad we were, and continue to be murdered.
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
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[quote=Chakraman;20960103][quote=Woodrow LI;20960016]There will be many questions left unanswered. It is doubtful we will ever know the truth. A video I found that raises some questions.

Quote:


We know the truth. It is because of Muhammad we were, and continue to be murdered.
Explain why as a Christian Missionary, making a pain in the Butt of myself throughout the Mideast, preaching the lies of Christianity, I was not murdered. I certainly made a pest of my self and was doing my best to get Muslims to apostate. This was in Iran and Saudi among other nations. Yet, not once was I ever threatened or treated unkindly.

I spoke virtually identical the same as you speak of Muslim and did present the very same arguments you present. But, after many years I learned how deceptive and sneaky a Christian can be as I was once a sneaking, conniving Evangelist who thought he was doing the work of Jesus(as). I finally learned that it is through Islam, one can learn to follow Jesus(as) and not the lies of Paul.

I love Jesus(as) with all my heart. But, the NT is not the word of God(swt) nor the teaching of Jesus(as).

Perhaps one day you will find Jesus(as) and learn to love Him, instead of the lies of the false prophet Paul, who destroyed what Jesus(as) brought.
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