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Old 09-20-2011, 08:35 PM
 
Location: OKC
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Woodrow makes some good points. Maybe I get to influenced by television about the level of violence in Islam, simply because there is a bias towards the dramatic. Maybe I tend to forget just how violent christians can be.
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Old 09-20-2011, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Good grief........ In Islamic countries people are executed for being gay, and adultery, by various governments.

In Islamic countries people are stoned and have limbs cut off, and are whipped for punishment.

Yet I have yet to hear any Muslim say all these behaviors are really wrong and ought not happen. Instead I see them justifying them because it is somehow Islamic. Or I see folks saying well..... The West has violence too.

Or gosh there was violence 2000 years ago done by Christians.

Yes Christianity has moved beyond the behavior of 2000 years ago. But as long as Islam uses the Qur'an to justify what it does it will never move forward because I see Muslims as really believing that to change is to somehow go against Islam.

Even 1 stoning or hanging or decapitation, or limb removal is one to many and barbaric.

Islam really looks very inflexible in my opinion much of the time and the Muslims here reinforce that view in almost all the posts.

Some of the most backwards laws are on the books in Muslim countries.

As to your jab at Christianity, I would suspect that 500 years from now Islam will look differently then it does now. History has a way of doing that. All religions evolve and change and to think otherwise is not being realistic. History has a way of doing that.
Virtually 100% of the atrocities are committed by less than 10% of the world's Muslims and all seem to be in a tiny section of the world. Those who do such things speak only for themselves. You may ask why don't the rest of us stop them? We do try to. However, on a larger but more quiet scale we are having more educated Imams going into the isolated backward regions and helping spread Islam, to Muslims. It is shocking to discover how few Muslims in the Islamic Nations have ever read the Qur'an. the past 60 years have produced 2 successive generations of virtual Illiteracy among nearly 10% of the world's Muslims.

As for Islam changing, the answer is no, As Islam is basically the 5 pillars of Faith. who follows those is a Muslim. There is much variance in the lives and culture of Muslims and Muslims do change and adapt to life. but do so without any need to alter the 5 pillars. We all belong to one Ummah as we follow the same pillars, but we still retain our individuality.

We are very inflexible when it comes to the 5 pillars. but for all other things as long as it is not haram we are permitted to do it, and we do have a lot of flexibility in personal choices.

In case anyone is not familiar with the 5 pillars here they are:

The Five Pillars of Faith

Once a Muslim, each member must carry out five essential duties, called The Five Pillars of Faith.

A Muslim must acknowledge that "There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Prophet"

A Muslim must pray five times daily facing Mecca: at dawn, at noon, in the midafternoon, at dusk, and after dark.

Each Muslim must pay a zagat(Charity) to the government.--If we are in a non-Muslim country we pay our zaqat directly to the poor and needy where ever we find them.

A Muslim must fast for the month of Ramadan. During the fasting month, one must refrain from eating, drinking, smoking, and sexual intercourse from dawn until sunset.

A Muslim must make a pilgrimage to Mecca. Every adult Muslim who is physically and financially able to do so must make this pilgrimage at least once in his or her lifetime.

Those are what every Muslim is required to do. We also share the same beliefs. we have the responsibility to prove to ourselves these beliefs are true. these beliefs being:

Tawheed - (Oneness of God)

'Adl - (Justice) - Essentially part of Tawheed. Belief that God is Just.

Nubuwwat - (Prophethood) - Belief in the Prophets (PBUT) of God

Imamat - (Guidance) - Belief in the divinely appointed leadership after the death of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) to protect and guide mankind with the revealed Truth (In other words, the Qur'an will never change)

Qiyaamat - (Resurrection) - Belief in the Day of Judgement when all human beings shall be raised from the dead and all their good and bad deeds shall be ultimately judged and recompensed accordingly.

Most of us also believe God(swt) knows all things that have been, are and will be.

But as to what a Muslim is, the 5 Pillars and the fundamental beliefs are what all Muslims have in common.

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 09-20-2011 at 09:55 PM..
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:33 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
And????

The Death penalty was in use when Jesus(as) walked this earth and it continues to be up to today. Yet, at no point during the early days of Christianity do you read of any condemnation of it in the NT or by the Early Christians.
Which begs another question, Woodrow. If Jesus was the glorious prophet Islam claims he was, why was HE silent on Jewish laws dealing with the death penalty or say, things like slavery? I mean, I realize it was a different time and place, but one would think his "enlightened" words would have transcended the times, right? Yet, silence.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:23 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Which begs another question, Woodrow. If Jesus was the glorious prophet Islam claims he was, why was HE silent on Jewish laws dealing with the death penalty or say, things like slavery? I mean, I realize it was a different time and place, but one would think his "enlightened" words would have transcended the times, right? Yet, silence.
Up until the slavery of the US. slavery was considerably different. A slave was to be treated as a family member, not separated from family and be given the means to earn his freedom, provided his needs and to be treated with kindness. Slaves were usually minor criminals making restitution for there crimes, Prisoners of war, indentured servants working their way out of poverty etc. It was not to be like the slavery of Egypt nor what it became in the Americas. It was very much like the minimum wage jobs of today. There often were abuses. Especially when slaves were sold. But the overall concept of slavery was not what it became and what we now see as slavery. The dividing of families and cruelty were abuses of slavery.

Slavery in pre-industrial days was more like minimum wage jobs, Work training or refuge for the poor. The important factor was that a slave was to have the opportunity to gain his freedom and slave owners were encouraged to free their slaves as an act of charity. In many ways in the days before industry, slavery was a necessity to keep the poor from being homeless or without food. It was never a good thing but at one time when done properly, it was a means for the poor to rise above poverty (Provided the slave owners did as they were supposed to do)

The Death penalty was permitted by God(swt) but the conditions for using it have always been very strict, and it was/is often abused. prisons are a fairly new innovation inthe past it was usually home imprisonment or limited slavery. Usual punishments for criminals was limited to things like fines, slavery. flogging or death.


Quote:
Prisons have only been used as the primary punishment for criminal acts in the last couple of centuries. Far more common earlier were various types of corporal punishment, public humiliation, penal bondage, and banishment for more severe offences, as well as capital punishment.
SOURCE

Todays prisons are actually crueler than slavery as they separate families and often deprive the family of a wage earner. It punishes the family along with the guilty.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Kenmore, WA
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People convert from one religion to another -- always have, always will. Beliefs are personal and as we grow our ideas change about life. There have been extreme times in our world history that people have lost their lives for their religious choices -- from all religions, including Christianity. If you actually study the different religious wisdom writings (such as the Torah, the Koran, the Bible, etc) all depict stories of death and destruction but the stories are stories to be learned from, not to be interpreted literally as instruction.

Muslim converts are only at risk from extremists with terrorist intentions, as we all are, but cannot live their lives in fear. None of us can, or should.
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Old 09-21-2011, 07:57 AM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,463,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
. It was not to be like the slavery of Egypt nor what it became in the Americas.
If you are referring to the biblical enslavement of Israel by the Egyptians, that never happened. The workers who built all the wonderful Egyptian architecture were well-paid, skilled workers who were neither slaves nor indentured servants, and who were housed in good housing, fed good food, and treated well.

Also, saying "it was different back then" in terms of actual slavery is absolutely disgusting. Slavery was just as cruel in biblical times as it was in historical American and European times.
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Old 09-21-2011, 08:22 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,732,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Up until the slavery of the US. slavery was considerably different. A slave was to be treated as a family member, not separated from family and be given the means to earn his freedom, provided his needs and to be treated with kindness. Slaves were usually minor criminals making restitution for there crimes, Prisoners of war, indentured servants working their way out of poverty etc. It was not to be like the slavery of Egypt nor what it became in the Americas. It was very much like the minimum wage jobs of today. There often were abuses. Especially when slaves were sold. But the overall concept of slavery was not what it became and what we now see as slavery. The dividing of families and cruelty were abuses of slavery.

Slavery in pre-industrial days was more like minimum wage jobs, Work training or refuge for the poor. The important factor was that a slave was to have the opportunity to gain his freedom and slave owners were encouraged to free their slaves as an act of charity. In many ways in the days before industry, slavery was a necessity to keep the poor from being homeless or without food. It was never a good thing but at one time when done properly, it was a means for the poor to rise above poverty (Provided the slave owners did as they were supposed to do)

The Death penalty was permitted by God(swt) but the conditions for using it have always been very strict, and it was/is often abused. prisons are a fairly new innovation inthe past it was usually home imprisonment or limited slavery. Usual punishments for criminals was limited to things like fines, slavery. flogging or death.


SOURCE

Todays prisons are actually crueler than slavery as they separate families and often deprive the family of a wage earner. It punishes the family along with the guilty.
Your statements are clearly not true, at least in regards to islam and jewish slaves.

It is acknowledge that slaves were taken as booty of war. The women could be forced into sex slaves. They were ripped apart from their families.

It's hard to reconcile that with the cheery picture of slavery you've painted.
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Old 09-21-2011, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
Your statements are clearly not true, at least in regards to islam and jewish slaves.

It is acknowledge that slaves were taken as booty of war. The women could be forced into sex slaves. They were ripped apart from their families.

It's hard to reconcile that with the cheery picture of slavery you've painted.
As I said there were abuses. what was taught and what was supposed to be were not always followed. In fact those who followed it properly were the exception.
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Old 09-21-2011, 08:48 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,732,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As I said there were abuses. what was taught and what was supposed to be were not always followed. In fact those who followed it properly were the exception.

Taking women as the booty of war and using them as concubines was taught as an acceptable practice, not an abuse. This is certainly true of the OT jewish/christian slaves, and it's my impression that it is true of Islamic slaves as well.

I look into it and see what a fair reading of Islamic scripture has to say about this. I could be wrong.
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Old 09-21-2011, 08:59 AM
 
Location: OKC
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My quick research suggests that the Quran allows both the taking of women by force and buying them at auction, and then using them as unmarried sex slaves.

This is done under the principle of Ma malakat aymanukum.
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