U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-21-2011, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
Reputation: 7407

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
Taking women as the booty of war and using them as concubines was taught as an acceptable practice, not an abuse. This is certainly true of the OT jewish/christian slaves, and it's my impression that it is true of Islamic slaves as well.

I look into it and see what a fair reading of Islamic scripture has to say about this. I could be wrong.
You must remember the Qur'an was revealed over a 20 year period of time. The people of Arabia were very primitive and an extremely violent people.

By the time the Qur'an was complete, sexual relations were only permitted in marriage.

Prior to the Qur'an there were no restrictions on the number of wives and concubines a man could have. Women were property and treated as livestock. The Qur'an was brought to a people that had no belief in the God(swt) of Abraham, the were genuine pagans and idol worshipers. the qur'an was a whole new message to them.

To place it in a comparable view, the OT took over 1000 years to complete.

In some ways you can compare the older Surah as being the OT of the Qur'an. early lesser rules to prepare the people for the full Qur'an.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-21-2011, 09:20 AM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,463,613 times
Reputation: 3946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You must remember the Qur'an was revealed over a 20 year period of time. The people of Arabia were very primitive and an extremely violent people.

By the time the Qur'an was complete, sexual relations were only permitted in marriage.

Prior to the Qur'an there were no restrictions on the number of wives and concubines a man could have. Women were property and treated as livestock. The Qur'an was brought to a people that had no belief in the God(swt) of Abraham, the were genuine pagans and idol worshipers. the qur'an was a whole new message to them.

To place it in a comparable view, the OT took over 1000 years to complete.

In some ways you can compare the older Surah as being the OT of the Qur'an. early lesser rules to prepare the people for the full Qur'an.
OOOooooh so that makes the abuse okay then, I get it! Hurray slavery! Hurray misogyny! Hurray only being allow to own four wives (they can still be little girls, though)!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2011, 09:21 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,732,234 times
Reputation: 1770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You must remember the Qur'an was revealed over a 20 year period of time. The people of Arabia were very primitive and an extremely violent people.

By the time the Qur'an was complete, sexual relations were only permitted in marriage.

Prior to the Qur'an there were no restrictions on the number of wives and concubines a man could have. Women were property and treated as livestock. The Qur'an was brought to a people that had no belief in the God(swt) of Abraham, the were genuine pagans and idol worshipers. the qur'an was a whole new message to them.

To place it in a comparable view, the OT took over 1000 years to complete.

In some ways you can compare the older Surah as being the OT of the Qur'an. early lesser rules to prepare the people for the full Qur'an.

So only the later parts of the Quran are in effect, and a muslim may ignore any of the early writings?

Or do muslims try to find an interpretation that allows for consistency between later and earlier passages?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2011, 10:24 AM
 
148 posts, read 263,659 times
Reputation: 29
I think sex after war is good as it will bring the enemies together in one new generation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2011, 10:32 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,732,234 times
Reputation: 1770
Quote:
Originally Posted by a slave of Allah View Post
I think sex after war is good as it will bring the enemies together in one new generation.

So you think the U.S. soliders in Iraq and Afghanistan should be able to take the Muslim women they capture and make them sex slaves?

Or do you only think it is only okay for the Muslims to take the sex slaves?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2011, 10:37 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,911,546 times
Reputation: 1354
*Refusing the urge to use sarcasm for that post by Slave of Allah*

Anyway Woodrow, the mention of slavery jogged my brain there for a minute. I am now reminded of the Islamic foray into Eastern and Western Africa that brought back slaves to the upper Middle Eastern countries PRIOR to the Europeans following that blueprint to shackle Africans for their own brand of slavery. In the Islamic world of that time, was the practice accepted as "okay" or can we find an isolated voice here and there that rejected such practices BASED on the teachings of the Koran? Would Muhammad have approved of it based on his own time and culture or would his deity have EXPLICITLY commanded him NOT to engage in such cruelty no matter how tame (or not) it may have been compared to other slavery stories we know about? After all, hauling people off into slavery thousands of miles across a desert and MAKING them serve another people is not exactly something pleasant on ANY level.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2011, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
So only the later parts of the Quran are in effect, and a muslim may ignore any of the early writings?

Or do muslims try to find an interpretation that allows for consistency between later and earlier passages?
There are no inconsistencies between the Surahs. You do have a history of what people were doing before being told some things were prohibited. That does not mean they were permitted. Just that they had not yet learned they were prohibited. You also have to understand Muhammad(PBUH) did not know what was going to be in the Qur'an until after it was revealed. He did not know what was prohibited, until he was told it was prohibited.


No we can not ignore the Earlier Surahs. They are still valid, to under stand the Qur'an you need to look at it as a whole. If something is forbidden in any part of the Qur'an it is forbidden. Nothing that was prohibited was ever changed to being permitted at a later date. If something is not forbidden in the Qur'an it is considered permissible unless proven other wise, or violates other laws. If we have some doubt about the permissibility of something we are to avoid doing it.

For example while a man is permitted to have 4 wives, we are not permitted to violate the laws of the country we live in. so for most Muslims we can not have more than one wife as we must obey the country's laws.
Another example, with many modern innovations, cultures and inventions, they are not named in the Qur'an. There we have to use some logic and try to determine the effects. Tobacco usage is the best example. Initially no harm was seen in smoking. Later people complained about the smell of smoking, so smoking was not acceptable, but it was not considered a sin to smoke. As the health risks of smoking became known, and that the Qur'an does prohibit us to deliberately do anything that harms our body. Smoking is now seen as being prohibited, because it harms our body.

The Qur'an is the only religious text that limits the number of wives a man may have and sets specific conditions that must be met before taking more than one wife. There is no prohibition about polygamy in the Bible in either the new or old testaments. The restrictions are National laws, not religious prohibitions, we also have to follow the same national laws of the country we live in.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2011, 11:03 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,732,234 times
Reputation: 1770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are no inconsistencies between the Surahs. You do have a history of what people were doing before being told some things were prohibited. That does not mean they were permitted. Just that they had not yet learned they were prohibited. You also have to understand Muhammad(PBUH) did not know what was going to be in the Qur'an until after it was revealed. He did not know what was prohibited, until he was told it was prohibited.


No we can not ignore the Earlier Surahs. They are still valid, to under stand the Qur'an you need to look at it as a whole. If something is forbidden in any part of the Qur'an it is forbidden. Nothing that was prohibited was ever changed to being permitted at a later date. If something is not forbidden in the Qur'an it is considered permissible unless proven other wise, or violates other laws. If we have some doubt about the permissibility of something we are to avoid doing it.

For example while a man is permitted to have 4 wives, we are not permitted to violate the laws of the country we live in. so for most Muslims we can not have more than one wife as we must obey the country's laws.
Another example, with many modern innovations, cultures and inventions, they are not named in the Qur'an. There we have to use some logic and try to determine the effects. Tobacco usage is the best example. Initially no harm was seen in smoking. Later people complained about the smell of smoking, so smoking was not acceptable, but it was not considered a sin to smoke. As the health risks of smoking became known, and that the Qur'an does prohibit us to deliberately do anything that harms our body. Smoking is now seen as being prohibited, because it harms our body.

The Qur'an is the only religious text that limits the number of wives a man may have and sets specific conditions that must be met before taking more than one wife. There is no prohibition about polygamy in the Bible in either the new or old testaments. The restrictions are National laws, not religious prohibitions, we also have to follow the same national laws of the country we live in.
Do you believe the Qur'an allowed Muslims to take slaves, and either force them to marry or force them to be a concubine? After all, even Mohammed had this arrangement, and I see no evidence in the Qu'ran that would prevent it, while there is some that suggest it is allowed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2011, 11:07 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,428,280 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by a slave of Allah View Post
I think sex after war is good as it will bring the enemies together in one new generation.

What an interesting post............
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2011, 11:09 AM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,463,613 times
Reputation: 3946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
What an interesting post............
Yeah, it goes right along with the old Norse joke "Burn first, then rape, because sex by firelight is more romantic." But interestingly enough, speaking in a historical sense, conquering armies did tend to take native brides, and it did promote growth and change in culture.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top