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Old 09-29-2011, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood2011 View Post
This not dealing with individuals, this is dealing with Sharia law.

There is no separation of church and state in sharia run countries. The church is the state regardless of what individuals support.

I recommend to people to visit some of these countries in the middle east, as I have, and get a dose of reality.
I lived in the Mideastern countries as an evangelist off and on for a total of 10+ years between 1960-1980. At no time did I come across any hostility or was threatened in any manner.

If you read the News article you may notice about 3 Paragraphs down:

Quote:
Dadkhah said neither Iranian law nor clerics have ever stipulated the death penalty as punishment for converting from Islam to Christianity.
The judges in the case, according to the American Center for Law & Justice (ACLJ), demanded that Nadarkhani recant his Christian faith before submission of evidence. Though the judgment runs against current Iranian and international laws and is not codified in Iranian penal code, the judge stated that the court must uphold the decision of the 27th Branch of the Supreme Court in Qom.
Iran is following neither sharia nor it's own written laws. What Iran calls Shariah is Jafa'ari. I ran is the only country that recognizes the Jafa'ari Madhab as being Shariah. There are 5 different forms of legal Jurisprudence. Any one of these is called called Sharia, but the form practiced in one nation is often not recognized by others.

Nowever that is moot as even in the Jfa'ari followed by Iran, the Death Penalty is not mandatory for Apostasy. Iran, seems to be writing it's own laws as the government desires.
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Old 09-29-2011, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
personally Id like to see Israel allow civil marriage for those who prefer it, but the fact that they do not does not really effect day to day life for most people. Of course they do not impose the penalty - they just dont recognize civil marriage, etc. Of course many muslim countries that to recognize sharia, do so only for family law, and impose no death penalties related to sharia. which ones DO impose death for apostasy? Iran, Saudi(?) Afghanistan (but they retreated on that, didnt they?) maybe Pakistan?
There are 5 Fiqh's of Islamic Jurisprudence. There is no one thing called Shariah. The 2 strictest Fiqhs are Hanabli as followed by Saudi and the Jafa'ari followed by Iran. but even under those two the death penalty is not mandatory for Apostasy. An odd twist here, under Jafa'ari Sharia, apostasy is supposed to be legal and is even written as legal in the Iranian constitution.
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:40 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,748,074 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood2011 View Post
Iranian Pastor Faces Execution For Refusing To Recant Christian Faith | Fox News

Feelin' the love?

Wonder how muslims would act if this was reversed?
You are telling me to trust Fox News? No thanks. Since it's on Fox News, the most likely true story is that the Pastor is a violent or grotesque criminal and the Iranian judges want him to say he is not a theist.

atheists are probably murdered by Iran constantly and Christians don't say a peep. This is because most Christians are hypocrites.

breakingnews:

On the other hand, It turns out this guy is into Westboro stuff. He called Islam a "Blasphemy" right to the Muslim Sharia Judge's face. He also committed a crime by changing his mind on religion as an adult. I think he should look into moving instead... Iran is not going to change in his favor so easily.

The weird thing is that Christianity is not a crime (spreading it probably is) in the Islamic Republic of Iran, and up to the year 1990 apostasy was never crime worthy of a death sentence. The Judges probably got pissed that he called their religion "A Blasphemy" and he probably has other crimes on his roll. As Christians often do.

His actual charge is probably being a crazy street loony trying to spread weirdo Christianity as if though it solved problems... HAHA that's hilarious. All Christianity does is create hypocrites.

He was probably supposed to swear on the "Holy Quran" before the court could come to order and instead refused and the grounds that he is no longer Muslim but in fact committed apostasy, Probably proceded to call Islam horrible names, just the Christians did with the pagans. They always ask why they are persecuted... its probably because you are so egotistical.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 09-29-2011 at 09:51 PM..
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:52 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood2011 View Post
They put to death many who were labeled heretics. They just don't do it anymore, or promote conversion or death. (Although they may privately wish they could)
They may privately believe in purple fairies... we'll never know.
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:57 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood2011 View Post
Yeah. I guess one side got past that, and the other didn't.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I figure apologists will get more caught up in my mostly "rhetorical" question instead of the article and what it clearly presents.
Yeah, you people sure got over the whole Roman persecution didn't you. ... oh wait, no, you retell it to each other every Sunday as if though it happened the day before, instead of 1,700 years ago
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Old 09-29-2011, 10:00 PM
 
Location: southern california
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quran chp9 sect 2 page 213, calls upon muslims to kill jews and christians "polytheists"
question how many here have read quran, all of it?
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Old 09-30-2011, 04:48 AM
 
39,217 posts, read 10,895,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
No thanks. I'm not inerested in the kind of reality that separates my head from the rest of my body.
You prefer the sort of unreality that does that eh?

Thanks for posting Woodrow. I would have asked for your opinion otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are 5 Fiqh's of Islamic Jurisprudence. There is no one thing called Shariah. The 2 strictest Fiqhs are Hanabli as followed by Saudi and the Jafa'ari followed by Iran. but even under those two the death penalty is not mandatory for Apostasy. An odd twist here, under Jafa'ari Sharia, apostasy is supposed to be legal and is even written as legal in the Iranian constitution.
"The judges in the case, according to the American Center for Law & Justice (ACLJ), demanded that Nadarkhani recant his Christian faith before submission of evidence."

If that's true, it is appalling. Even if a Creationist was put on trial before an Evolutionist court and the case was decided (as is should be of course) in favour of evolution, I would not like it to be demanded that he or she recant their belief, though it would be reasonable to say that they legally could not claim or write that their belief was adequately supported by scientific evidence. Recent Oregon Fail Healing case shows that Religious belief should not give immunity to human law.

Of course, I suppose that one has to abide by the law of a country or find another country. But majority rule should not override minority rights. That's what seems to have occurred here and maybe that's why Iran has a lot of dissidents.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-30-2011 at 04:58 AM..
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Old 09-30-2011, 08:04 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
You prefer the sort of unreality that does that eh?

Thanks for posting Woodrow. I would have asked for your opinion otherwise.



"The judges in the case, according to the American Center for Law & Justice (ACLJ), demanded that Nadarkhani recant his Christian faith before submission of evidence."

If that's true, it is appalling. Even if a Creationist was put on trial before an Evolutionist court and the case was decided (as is should be of course) in favour of evolution, I would not like it to be demanded that he or she recant their belief, though it would be reasonable to say that they legally could not claim or write that their belief was adequately supported by scientific evidence. Recent Oregon Fail Healing case shows that Religious belief should not give immunity to human law.

Of course, I suppose that one has to abide by the law of a country or find another country. But majority rule should not override minority rights. That's what seems to have occurred here and maybe that's why Iran has a lot of dissidents.
There is something else taking place in the background we do not know about. To execute him for apostasy is going against the Quran, Jafa'ri Shariah Law and the Iranian constitution. But then again Iran is Iran and is known to change the laws to agree with the desired punishment.
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Old 09-30-2011, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
quran chp9 sect 2 page 213, calls upon muslims to kill jews and christians "polytheists"
question how many here have read quran, all of it?
I've read the Qur'an several hundred times,I reat one juz daily which means I read the entire Qur'an each month 1/30th of it each day. so over the past 7 years I've read it a few times. I usually read it in Arabic, but I am familiar with the Translations of Ysuf Ali, Pickthall, Mohsin and a few others.



I'm trying to find what Surat and ayyat you are speaking of I assume you mean Surat 2 ayyat 213

Quote:
213. Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.
Nope that does not seem to be what you mean.

Can't be 9, 213 as 9 only has 129 ayyats

I have no idea what you mean by Qur'an chp9 sect 2 page 213. That is not how the Qur'an is divided. You may be refering to a Hadith. but for that I will need the name of the Book, there are over 1 million Hadith.

Yes there are seveal Ayyats that non-Muslims think we are told to kill Christians, Jews and polytheists, but all of them are in reference to if we are attacked in war we may protect ourselves. Even then we are to show mercy and not harm non-combatants and only kill if there is no other means to keep from being killed.
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Old 09-30-2011, 09:10 AM
 
15,723 posts, read 9,656,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood2011 View Post
Iranian Pastor Faces Execution For Refusing To Recant Christian Faith | Fox News

Feelin' the love?

Wonder how muslims would act if this was reversed?
Not that I'm condoning the actions, as I think Iran is a disgusting country, but in Medieval days, it was reversed. Thousands if not millions of muslims were executed by Crusaders.

All this reassures is conservative beliefs of any variety (be it Islam, Christianity, Militant Atheism, etc.) are all evil and we should seek to eradicate conservative, rigid beliefs from society.
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