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Old 10-01-2011, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
"What is Sharia Law?"
Like ALL religious laws, an unacceptable imposition for any civilized society. Secular laws are the only acceptable laws for any society. God takes care of His own policing. Only impotent Gods would need human laws and punishments.
Which is why under sharia only 5 crimes require an earthly punishment. those 5 are:

  • Theft (sariqa, السرقة)
  • Highway robbery (qat' al-tariq, قطع الطريق)
  • Illegal sexual intercourse (zina', الزناء)
  • False accusation of zina' (qadhf, القذف)
  • Drinking alcohol (shurb al-khamr, شرب الخمر)

It should also be noticed that these 5 Hadd (Hadud) crimes affect people and are crimes against people. The implimentation of and severity of punishment is at the descretion of the Madhab followed by the Country it occurs for. Hanafi seek leniency, Jafa'ari demands the most severe punishment allowed. Only Iran follows the Jafa'ari Madhab of Sharia.
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Old 10-02-2011, 12:34 AM
 
Location: Metromess
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What is "illegal sexual intercourse"? Although you lost me at 'drinking alcohol'. 'Tain't nobody's business if I do, thank you very much.
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Old 10-02-2011, 04:15 AM
 
39,026 posts, read 10,819,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Which is why under sharia only 5 crimes require an earthly punishment. those 5 are:

  • Theft (sariqa, السرقة)
  • Highway robbery (qat' al-tariq, قطع الطريق)
  • Illegal sexual intercourse (zina', الزناء)
  • False accusation of zina' (qadhf, القذف)
  • Drinking alcohol (shurb al-khamr, شرب الخمر)

It should also be noticed that these 5 Hadd (Hadud) crimes affect people and are crimes against people. The implimentation of and severity of punishment is at the descretion of the Madhab followed by the Country it occurs for. Hanafi seek leniency, Jafa'ari demands the most severe punishment allowed. Only Iran follows the Jafa'ari Madhab of Sharia.
We really needed a muslim who could explain these matters and I can certainly go along with Thom R's remark that not all discussion is debate.

I don't believe in any God or religion and you know I don't, so Bible based or Quran - based law is not an issue. It is needful to get over the possible misconceptions about Islam which gives it a distinctly bad press in the west.

It's certainly instructive to see that there is a requirement for Muslims to abide by the law of the country they live in. The high profile reports that we get is of muslims breaking the law repeatedly and conveying the impression that Shariya law supersedes any man - made law and muslims should respect the law of a country only because they are not yet strong enough to defy it.

As Pratchett wrote in 'Thud' the fea of a host nation about immigrants (Fundamentalist dwarves in Ankh Morpork) "They undermine our city and don't respect our laws'.

It's a xenophobic fear and one which regrettably the generality of Muslim posters here don't help with the posting of indigestible wads of preaching and You Tubes of ranting preachers.

I'm learning from you Mr Li. I hope we all can.
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Old 10-02-2011, 04:19 AM
 
39,026 posts, read 10,819,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
What is "illegal sexual intercourse"? Although you lost me at 'drinking alcohol'. 'Tain't nobody's business if I do, thank you very much.
Yes. I wondered about that too, and I don't want anyone telling me what I should or shouldn't eat on the basis of a Holy Book, though one can always make a social, moral or medical case about it.

And what's the 'false accusation?' Maybe I'll look that up. Hmm. Very specific.

"Those who accuse honourable women and bring not four witnesses as an evidence [for their accusation], inflict eighty stripes upon them, and never accept their testimony in future. They indeed are transgressors. But those who repent and mend their ways, Allah is Ever-Forgiving and Most-Merciful. And those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves shall swear four times by Allah that they are telling the truth and the fifth time that the curse of Allah be on them if they are lying. But this shall avert the punishment from the wife if she swears four times by Allah and says that this person is a liar and the fifth time she says that the curse of Allah be on her if he is telling the truth. (24:4-9)"

I'm surprised that it seems to relate just to matters of women and sex (not men, of course). It's alarming that the requirement is not whether their testimony is true or not but whether they got four people make the same testimony. It might seems that such a conspiracy is unlikely, but it is surely naive to suppose that it couldn't happen. As a goddless (of any stripe) bastard I of course would not risk any money on anyone, male or female swearing by Allah thereby assuredly telling the truth. Which is why I would prefer man- made law every time.

But I'm willing to be persuaded that it works better than it looks.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-02-2011 at 04:27 AM..
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Old 10-02-2011, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
What is "illegal sexual intercourse"? Although you lost me at 'drinking alcohol'. 'Tain't nobody's business if I do, thank you very much.
It means any sexual acts outside of marriage. It includes but is not limited to rape, adultery, incest, Homosexual acts, bestiality, etc.

The criteria for proving such acts is very demanding and requires a minimum of 4 witnesses each describing the exact same act in the minutest detail. Any difference in the testimony is sufficient to call the allegation false.

Roughly what this means is what goes on in the privacy of one's home and is not against anyone's will can not be proven in a Sharia court. It is still a grave sin the person will have to answer to Allaah(swt) for on judgement day.
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Old 10-02-2011, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Yes. I wondered about that too, and I don't want anyone telling me what I should or shouldn't eat on the basis of a Holy Book, though one can always make a social, moral or medical case about it.

And what's the 'false accusation?' Maybe I'll look that up. Hmm. Very specific.

"Those who accuse honourable women and bring not four witnesses as an evidence [for their accusation], inflict eighty stripes upon them, and never accept their testimony in future. They indeed are transgressors. But those who repent and mend their ways, Allah is Ever-Forgiving and Most-Merciful. And those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves shall swear four times by Allah that they are telling the truth and the fifth time that the curse of Allah be on them if they are lying. But this shall avert the punishment from the wife if she swears four times by Allah and says that this person is a liar and the fifth time she says that the curse of Allah be on her if he is telling the truth. (24:4-9)"

I'm surprised that it seems to relate just to matters of women and sex (not men, of course). It's alarming that the requirement is not whether their testimony is true or not but whether they got four people make the same testimony. It might seems that such a conspiracy is unlikely, but it is surely naive to suppose that it couldn't happen. As a goddless (of any stripe) bastard I of course would not risk any money on anyone, male or female swearing by Allah thereby assuredly telling the truth. Which is why I would prefer man- made law every time.

But I'm willing to be persuaded that it works better than it looks.
Shariah laws while based upon the Qur'an are man made laws and based upon public concurrence and local tradition. which is why there are different madhabs of Shariah.

Although in the English translations it does appear the laws regarding illicit sex apply only to women. that is not the case. The laws go a bit deeper than the short excerpts that usually get translated. Also the laws of Sharia do differ among the different Madhabs. Some things are the same such as the requirements of reliable witnesses, what laws require an earthly punishment and what the punishments will be. Shariah can be quite secular such as the Hanafi Madhab as followed by Turkey.

As for the quote above regarding accusing a women and not producing four witnesses it is a quick way of saying the judge is going to throw it out and your going to get 40 lashes for wasting the judges time.

The part about the husband accusing the wife, this is in a divorce situation and the husband is seeking the divorce and giving an allegation of adultery. Roughly it means a husband is not going to get the property settlement changed unless he proves adultery and his testimony alone is not going to influence anybody and it is assumed that in a divorce case witnesses often can not be trusted.

Under Sharia (in all but the Jafra'ari Madhab) law divorce settlements are very much pro-woman. When a couple divorces for any reason besides adultery, the woman gets the house, furnishings, is paid a dower in full and the husband must pay her support and the support of any children until the time she remarries.


In other cases when witnesses accuse a woman of any illicit sexual act if it is found even one witness lied, all witnesses will receive the maximum punishment the woman would have faced if she had been convicted. (Notice carefully the 4 witnesses to an illicit sex crime must be seeing the very same act at the exact same time.)
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Old 10-02-2011, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
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Woodrow, do any countries in Europe allow Sharia law?

If so, what does it mean? If a person has a legal problem, can they choose which law to apply - the normal laws of the country, or Sharia law?

For example, if a person wants a divorce, can they say, "I want a divorce and I want to do it under Sharia law"?
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Old 10-02-2011, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Woodrow, do any countries in Europe allow Sharia law?

If so, what does it mean? If a person has a legal problem, can they choose which law to apply - the normal laws of the country, or Sharia law?

For example, if a person wants a divorce, can they say, "I want a divorce and I want to do it under Sharia law"?
I am not certain about any of the European Countries I believe it is permitted in the UK.

Here in the USA several states do allow sharia for civil cases provided all involved agree to it. It is allowed in Florida and Michigan, I believe also in Texas. It is being considered in other states. This is really no different than the use of Jewish law for civil matters being currently legal in all states. Shariah civil laws is very similar to Jewish civil law which is allowed in every State. Seems odd that Shariah civil law is illegal in some States.

The reason we want Shariah civil law is because often current state laws as applied are often considered sins in Islam. Especially the laws regarding divorce, inheritance, loans and adoption. The Qur'an is very specific about how those are to be done and any other way is a sin for us and not considered valid under Islam.

On a side note: Adoption is not permitted in Islam. We are commanded to provide for all children and if need be provide homes for them. But we can not adopt them nor can we be adopted, as we believe a person's heritage and birth family can not be severed for any reason.

Also the laws regarding loans, Muslim's are forbidden to pay interest or to charge it. Current laws force many Muslims to sin. Although La Riba (Interest free) banks are now legal in most States and are actually doing more business with Non-Muslims then Muslims.

La Riba housing mortgages are quite interesting. In simplicity you go to the bank, negotiate how much you are willing to pay for a piece of property along with the terms of payment, the bank negotiates with the property owner and buys it for an undisclosed price.

You pay the bank your agreed upon price and terms of payment. All payments go towards the principle and count as equity. If for some reason you forfeit and the bank forecloses, you get your equity back when the bank resells the property.
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Old 10-02-2011, 08:28 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,955,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

On a side note: Adoption is not permitted in Islam. We are commanded to provide for all children and if need be provide homes for them. But we can not adopt them nor can we be adopted, as we believe a person's heritage and birth family can not be severed for any reason.
I was not aware of this. I think I understand the reasoning here, but I admit I find this a tad unpleasant.

Although on the surface "provide homes for them" would seem to be kind of the same thing, but I'm thinking the person is still deemed to be in their birth-family regardless of who raises them. So it wouldn't be like kids only option is institutions, but still I think there would be difficulties with this in societies without a strong extended-family system.
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Old 10-02-2011, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This thread is intended to be primarily directed to non_Muslims and hopefully will help to clear at least some misconceptions.

To begin.Shariah is not one specific set of laws. The word Shariah literally means "Path to the watering place" like all things there is often more than one path. There are 5 standards of Islamic Jurisprudence in today's world. Each of these is called Shariah. The 5 established Madhabs (way of thinking) of Islamic Jurisprudence are : Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki, Shafi'i commonly followed by Sunni courts and Jafa'ari, which is recognized by the Shi'i. Each of these Madhabs is called Sharia.

The Hanafi Madhab is the oldest:



The Shi'i of Iran formed their own Madhab which is not recognized by the Sunni and that is the Jafa'ari.

There did come to be some common rules among the Madhabs as to what would be the source for Sharia. These being:



For the source of the quoted parts and additional information go HERE

MosNon Mulims when they think of Sharia are thinking only of what they hear of being practiced in Iran and to a lesser degree in Saudi. Jafa'ari is only practiced in Iran. It is a very small Madhabof Sharia and is not recognized by non-Shi'i Muslims.

The different Madhabs are practiced in different countries.



The point I am trying to get across is Sharia is 4 different things. to understand what is meant by Sharia, one needs to know what Madhab is being spoken of.

I will come back later and explain the differences between each Madhab. But the Madhabs range from being very liberal to extreme fundamentalism.
Just what we need *more* "laws"...
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