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Old 10-29-2011, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Woodrow you are very judgmental. The selling of pork is not the same as suicide bombing. You ought to worry about your own house and not the houses of others. You do not know how others live. There is not one way to be muslim, there are 5 pillars and those who follow those 5 pillars and say shahadah are muslim. there are sufi, shi'ah, and Sunni. There are conservative and liberal, you are not the judge, only G-d.
No human knows who is or is not a Muslim. Only Allaah(swt) knows. But we all have the ability to see if a person is doing something not in accordance with Islam and we each have a responsibility to tell our Brothers and sisters if they are not following Islam and give them valid reason why they are not with verification from the Qur'an, Ahadith and fiqh-ul-sunnah. they in turn have the obligation to verify on their own if their action or inaction is in violation of Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
The problem is the judgement coming from Muslims as to how all Muslims ought to live or they are not Muslims.
None of us have the right to say who is or is not a Muslim. but we can give reasons why we believe something is not Islamic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
I am utterly speechless. Sharia has no place in a civilized world and the more you say the more I am convinces that Sharia has no place in a democratic world and all who love freedom be they Muslim or non Muslim need to fight any form of sharia.
Do you know what sharia is???????

Or do you just see what some people call sharia. Killing apostates is not sharia. Suicide bombing is not sharia, Stoning adulterers is not sharia, forcing a person to dress in a certain manner is not sharia

Sharia was the first set of law that gave women rights. It was the first set of law that discouraged slavery, it is the set of laws that give all people equality.

Shariah civil law, guarantees that all who follow such in deciding contracts, can be certain the conditions of the contract do not cause any participant to sin.

Shariah has very little say over criminal laws, that is basically left to the community. Most Shariah law relates to fair treatment of all people and assurance any civil issue between individuals is fair and without sin.

Fortunately about 30 states actually do understand what is meant by shariah law in regards to civil matters and do permit at least some legal recognition of Shariah. I found Texas to be the most recptive of shariah for Muslims and Florida along with Oklahoma being the most anti-shariah.

For myself I find the tribal laws of the Lakotah to be nearly identical with Shariah (in some cases a bit stricter than shariah) so have no problems here in ND and For most civil issues I can use tribal law. which is recognized by all states.
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Old 10-29-2011, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Cupertino, CA
861 posts, read 1,752,383 times
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No, I don't think this is what Muslims in America want for America. Over the years Europe and Britain in particular have seem to have attract the more virulent and extreme Muslims. But in general I think American Muslims tend to be moderate in their views and behaviour.
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Old 10-29-2011, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberleutnant View Post
No, I don't think this is what Muslims in America want for America. Over the years Europe and Britain in particular have seem to have attract the more virulent and extreme Muslims. But in general I think American Muslims tend to be moderate in their views and behaviour.
I think what Europe and the UK is experiencing is back lash from the Muslim bashing of the 1960s-1980s. In some areas a gangland type mentality has taken hold, and some of the younger people are now attracted to the violent life style of gang membership.

In America, most of us just want legalization of Sharia civil laws for Muslims who desire for civil cases to be arbitrated Islamically. I doubt if that will last long as sharia civil law is being accepted in some states. I can foresee the day when Sharia civil laws will be accepted as legal for consenting Muslims in all 50 States.
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Old 10-29-2011, 06:58 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,884 posts, read 31,769,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think what Europe and the UK is experiencing is back lash from the Muslim bashing of the 1960s-1980s. In some areas a gangland type mentality has taken hold, and some of the younger people are now attracted to the violent life style of gang membership.

In America, most of us just want legalization of Sharia civil laws for Muslims who desire for civil cases to be arbitrated Islamically. I doubt if that will last long as sharia civil law is being accepted in some states. I can foresee the day when Sharia civil laws will be accepted as legal for consenting Muslims in all 50 States.
No way sharia should ever be accepted except in Islamic theocracies...I sure do not want it in my country, and will fight tooth and nail to prevent it.

Last edited by sanspeur; 10-29-2011 at 07:36 PM..
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Old 10-29-2011, 07:06 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,426,292 times
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[quote=Woodrow LI;21492323]No human knows who is or is not a Muslim. Only Allaah(swt) knows. But we all have the ability to see if a person is doing something not in accordance with Islam and we each have a responsibility to tell our Brothers and sisters if they are not following Islam and give them valid reason why they are not with verification from the Qur'an, Ahadith and fiqh-ul-sunnah. they in turn have the obligation to verify on their own if their action or inaction is in violation of Islam.

Woodrow, That is the problem, Muslims deciding who is a "real" muslim or who is acting like a Muslim. How folks practice their religion is personal and their responsibility, not yours.


None of us have the right to say who is or is not a Muslim. but we can give reasons why we believe something is not Islamic.

You don't even have the right to judge others and how they follow Islam. That is one of the biggest issues with religion. When followers think they have the right to determine who is right in following their religion.

Do you know what sharia is???????

yes

Or do you just see what some people call sharia. Killing apostates is not sharia. Suicide bombing is not sharia, Stoning adulterers is not sharia, forcing a person to dress in a certain manner is not sharia

You have been speaking of rules that would be obligatory for Muslims and would cover un Islamic behavior like selling Alcohol and pork and dressing in a non Islamic manner. You have as much as said that those who do not follow your version of Islam are not Muslims.

You said: "Because by saying one is Muslim would mean they agree to live in accordance with Sharia(religious) law. To not be liable under the law they would have to stop calling themselves Muslim. As it is we have too many wearing the name of Muslim, but do not follow Islam".

"Sadly that is not the case. Many of our civil matters are not currently enforceable in court. For example a Muslim is forbidden to sell pork or alcohol products. If a Muslim store owner started selling pork and alcohol products we have no legal way to stop him from doing so".



Sharia was the first set of law that gave women rights. It was the first set of law that discouraged slavery, it is the set of laws that give all people equality.

Shariah civil law, guarantees that all who follow such in deciding contracts, can be certain the conditions of the contract do not cause any participant to sin.

Shariah has very little say over criminal laws, that is basically left to the community. Most Shariah law relates to fair treatment of all people and assurance any civil issue between individuals is fair and without sin.

Fortunately about 30 states actually do understand what is meant by shariah law in regards to civil matters and do permit at least some legal recognition of Shariah. I found Texas to be the most recptive of shariah for Muslims and Florida along with Oklahoma being the most anti-shariah.

For myself I find the tribal laws of the Lakotah to be nearly identical with Shariah (in some cases a bit stricter than shariah) so have no problems here in ND and For most civil issues I can use tribal law. which is recognized by all states.

As to Native American law I can't speak to that but maybe Ptsum will add a view as I know he is very knowledgable on the subject.
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Old 10-29-2011, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
No way sharia should ever be accepted except in Islamic theocracies...I sure do not want in in my country, and will fight tooth and nail to prevent it.
As a non Muslim you would not be affected by it. Besides you are too late. it is accepted in Canada and some sharia laws are accepted in nearly every US state. Sharia Banking has already become the preferred banking of even some non-Muslims. Sharia marriages and divorces are legal in most states.

Sharia Civil law only applies to Muslims and only if all parties agree to Sharia arbitration.

We are only speaking of civil cases. Even many Muslims do not want sharia for Criminal cases.

Sharia civil law should cause no more concern than Judaic Civil law, which is legal in all 50 States.
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Old 10-29-2011, 07:34 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,426,292 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As a non Muslim you would not be affected by it. Besides you are too late. it is accepted in Canada and some sharia laws are accepted in nearly every US state. Sharia Banking has already become the preferred banking of even some non-Muslims. Sharia marriages and divorces are legal in most states.

Sharia Civil law only applies to Muslims and only if all parties agree to Sharia arbitration.

We are only speaking of civil cases. Even many Muslims do not want sharia for Criminal cases.

Sharia civil law should cause no more concern than Judaic Civil law, which is legal in all 50 States.
Woodrow we are talking about sharia law. Judaic Civil law does not affect most Jews, only those living in observant communities. I as a Jew do not need to worry about coming under the auspices of Jewish law. I do not need to fear those who do not think I am living Jewishly or in a manner they think I should be living in. I am free to be Jewish as I am and in control of my practice of Judaism.

I do not see that as what you espouse.

I have no problem with Islamic banking because their is choice. Many muslims us it many don't.

But you have mentioned more then once that Muslims ought to behave Islamically and to not do so means they are Muslims in name only.


Ones religious practice is personal and needs to stay that way. Your way in Islam is not every Muslims way. Being a Muslim is more then how you dress, and I would say many Muslims are comfortable living in a democracy, practicing their religion and don't really want sharia.
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Old 10-29-2011, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,884 posts, read 31,769,092 times
Reputation: 12628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As a non Muslim you would not be affected by it. Besides you are too late. it is accepted in Canada and some sharia laws are accepted in nearly every US state. Sharia Banking has already become the preferred banking of even some non-Muslims. Sharia marriages and divorces are legal in most states.
You are misinformed. Attempts to set up Sharia courts in Canada in 2005 were abandoned after protests. The Jewish community and the Catholic community did not want Muslims introducing Sharia into Canada, so they accepted the decision to ban all religious arbitration in Ontario, including their own respective tribunals.
In May 2005, the Quebec National Assembly unanimously supported a motion to block the use of Sharia law in Quebec courts. Sharia Law in Canada.



Quote:
Sharia civil law should cause no more concern than Judaic Civil law, which is legal in all 50 States.
I'm not aware of this, but I suggest you could be wrong here as well.

According to a survey done by Policy Exchange, 36 per cent of Muslims in Britain between the ages of 16 and 24 believe apostates should be killed. Since most Muslims have numerous young Muslims in their circle of family and friends, it is easy to see how this could have a chilling effect on Muslims who wish to leave Islam. For these Muslims, Sharia law is alive and well in Britain.

The US Constitution, as well as Western principles of human rights, guarantees each individual the right to choose her religion and practice it openly. However, there are now people living in the West who are denied this right–not by the official law of the state, but by the Muslim law of the street. Do we already have Sharia law in the West? « Citizens Against Sharia
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Old 10-29-2011, 08:04 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
[quote=Jazzymom;21493842]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
No human knows who is or is not a Muslim. Only Allaah(swt) knows. But we all have the ability to see if a person is doing something not in accordance with Islam and we each have a responsibility to tell our Brothers and sisters if they are not following Islam and give them valid reason why they are not with verification from the Qur'an, Ahadith and fiqh-ul-sunnah. they in turn have the obligation to verify on their own if their action or inaction is in violation of Islam.

Woodrow, That is the problem, Muslims deciding who is a "real" muslim or who is acting like a Muslim. How folks practice their religion is personal and their responsibility, not yours.


None of us have the right to say who is or is not a Muslim. but we can give reasons why we believe something is not Islamic.

You don't even have the right to judge others and how they follow Islam. That is one of the biggest issues with religion. When followers think they have the right to determine who is right in following their religion.

Do you know what sharia is???????

yes

Or do you just see what some people call sharia. Killing apostates is not sharia. Suicide bombing is not sharia, Stoning adulterers is not sharia, forcing a person to dress in a certain manner is not sharia

You have been speaking of rules that would be obligatory for Muslims and would cover un Islamic behavior like selling Alcohol and pork and dressing in a non Islamic manner. You have as much as said that those who do not follow your version of Islam are not Muslims.

You said: "Because by saying one is Muslim would mean they agree to live in accordance with Sharia(religious) law. To not be liable under the law they would have to stop calling themselves Muslim. As it is we have too many wearing the name of Muslim, but do not follow Islam".

"Sadly that is not the case. Many of our civil matters are not currently enforceable in court. For example a Muslim is forbidden to sell pork or alcohol products. If a Muslim store owner started selling pork and alcohol products we have no legal way to stop him from doing so".



Sharia was the first set of law that gave women rights. It was the first set of law that discouraged slavery, it is the set of laws that give all people equality.

Shariah civil law, guarantees that all who follow such in deciding contracts, can be certain the conditions of the contract do not cause any participant to sin.

Shariah has very little say over criminal laws, that is basically left to the community. Most Shariah law relates to fair treatment of all people and assurance any civil issue between individuals is fair and without sin.

Fortunately about 30 states actually do understand what is meant by shariah law in regards to civil matters and do permit at least some legal recognition of Shariah. I found Texas to be the most recptive of shariah for Muslims and Florida along with Oklahoma being the most anti-shariah.

For myself I find the tribal laws of the Lakotah to be nearly identical with Shariah (in some cases a bit stricter than shariah) so have no problems here in ND and For most civil issues I can use tribal law. which is recognized by all states.

As to Native American law I can't speak to that but maybe Ptsum will add a view as I know he is very knowledgable on the subject.
Perhaps you are reading too much into things. although I expressed my opinion about Islam and what I consider following Islam. I have never said anyone who calls himself Muslim is not Muslim.

I have not advocated sharia law for criminal or state calls. I only seek recognition of Sharia for consenting Muslims only, and only in civil matters, not criminal code. In other words issues like the marriage contract, divorce rights, inheritance rights, loan laws, business contracts and adoption.

I respect Ptsums views and do hope he will mention some of what he knows about Native American tribal Law. He is probably more familiar with the Cherokee Laws, but I find the Lakotah tribal laws to be nearly identical to the Cherokee.

Oddly not just myself but many of us have seen so much similarity between the Cherokee and Muslims we tend to believe that we both have at one time followed the same Prophets. Even now my wife follows many Native American traditions and none of them violate any Islamic beliefs.
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Old 10-29-2011, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Woodrow we are talking about sharia law. Judaic Civil law does not affect most Jews, only those living in observant communities. I as a Jew do not need to worry about coming under the auspices of Jewish law. I do not need to fear those who do not think I am living Jewishly or in a manner they think I should be living in. I am free to be Jewish as I am and in control of my practice of Judaism.

I do not see that as what you espouse.
Then either I am not making myself clear or you are misunderstanding me. I do not advocate that what I see as Islam is Islam. I like all Muslims can only represent my own opinion. we each need to follow what we personally have verified to be Islamic. Islam is all about personal responsibility and using the opinion of others only as a guideline for suggestions to look further.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
I have no problem with Islamic banking because their is choice. Many muslims us it many don't.
All things are our own choices. None of us has the right to force belief upon others. We have to be willing to accept sharia if we are to follow it, even in civil matters only. Most Muslims seek La Riba (Sharia) bank loans as we do like interest free loans and the fact that every penny paid into a mortgage counts as equity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
But you have mentioned more then once that Muslims ought to behave Islamically and to not do so means they are Muslims in name only.
I may be mistaken, but are you not one of those who criticize me by saying I do not take a stand against those who do not follow Islam. I do criticize all who I see not following Islam, be it suicide bombers or those selling haram merchandise. Yes, I believe if we are to call ourselves Muslim, we should act like Muslims, at least to the best of our ability. None of us can follow Islam perfectly, but we can all avoid doing things that are obviously Haram. A suicide bomber is not following Islam, neither is a merchant who sells pork. but that does not mean they are not Muslim. but I do feel that if a person will not follow Islam they should stop saying they are Muslim. I can not say they are not Muslim, but if they are deliberately not following Islam, I wish they had the courage to admit it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Ones religious practice is personal and needs to stay that way. Your way in Islam is not every Muslims way. Being a Muslim is more then how you dress, and I would say many Muslims are comfortable living in a democracy, practicing their religion and don't really want sharia.
I have yet to meet a Muslim in the USA who does not want recognition of the Sharia civil laws. although most of us do use it rather than secular law, our desire is that it have legal standing under the law. As for us using it for contracts etc we will continue doing so with dealings with Muslims and just rely on faith they will honor it. although we would have no legal recourse if they fail to honor any sharia agreement.
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