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Old 10-29-2011, 09:29 PM
 
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[quote=Woodrow LI;21494677]Then either I am not making myself clear or you are misunderstanding me. I do not advocate that what I see as Islam is Islam. I like all Muslims can only represent my own opinion. we each need to follow what we personally have verified to be Islamic. Islam is all about personal responsibility and using the opinion of others only as a guideline for suggestions to look further.


You do when you say you are tired of seeing Muslims who don't act islamically which you have said several times. Each Muslim needs to follow Islam how he sees it and leave others to do the same. I have heard you speak of having sharia law as a way to make sure others live Islamically.


All things are our own choices. None of us has the right to force belief upon others. We have to be willing to accept sharia if we are to follow it, even in civil matters only. Most Muslims seek La Riba (Sharia) bank loans as we do like interest free loans and the fact that every penny paid into a mortgage counts as equity.

But that is not what you espouse. You espoused going wanting to stop the Muslim who sells alcohol or pork. He may not be eating it or drinking it and selling it to non Muslims but you say he should be stopped and under sharia he would be. But he lives in a land that allows him to sell what ever he wants. So he gets a choice whether you agree or not. You speak of people who don't dress Islamically. Well again they have that right. Right now in England there are neighborhoods where Muslims are putting signs up that this particular neighborhood is a sharia neighborhood and assaulting all they deem as non Islamic. This is what Britain is dealing with. It is much more then a sharia compliant bank that people choose to do and it is a choice.



I may be mistaken, but are you not one of those who criticize me by saying I do not take a stand against those who do not follow Islam. I do criticize all who I see not following Islam, be it suicide bombers or those selling haram merchandise. Yes, I believe if we are to call ourselves Muslim, we should act like Muslims, at least to the best of our ability. None of us can follow Islam perfectly, but we can all avoid doing things that are obviously Haram. A suicide bomber is not following Islam, neither is a merchant who sells pork. but that does not mean they are not Muslim. but I do feel that if a person will not follow Islam they should stop saying they are Muslim. I can not say they are not Muslim, but if they are deliberately not following Islam, I wish they had the courage to admit it.


I criticize you because you seem to hold yourself up as the judge of Muslims and what is Islamically correct. That you may do but you may not judge others as to their level of practice because you do not ever really know enough to judge. That is the whole problem I see with Islam. The view that as Muslims other Muslims and their practices may be scrutinized and corrected. It is one of the reasons I left any connection I had with Islam. All moderate Muslims stayed away from the mosque and had nothing to do with those who attended the mosque. There were the Muslims who were moderate in their view and American and have become part of this fabric of the United States and those who have one foot in the Muslim country they came from and one foot in the United States.

I criticize you because you have no idea how the majority of Muslims practice their religion.



I have yet to meet a Muslim in the USA who does not want recognition of the Sharia civil laws. although most of us do use it rather than secular law, our desire is that it have legal standing under the law. As for us using it for contracts etc we will continue doing so with dealings with Muslims and just rely on faith they will honor it. although we would have no legal recourse if they fail to honor any sharia agreement.

I know many Muslims who want nothing to do with sharia law. They came here for religious freedom and to live in a democratic society and to not live in a Muslim society.
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Old 10-29-2011, 10:10 PM
 
177 posts, read 119,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That would be in criminal cases. I know of no Muslims in the USA that want to change the criminal laws. we simply want our Civil laws to be recognized as being legal. This would relate to things such as business contracts, marriage, divorce, inheritance etc. We are not speaking of anything that involves any type of punishment outside of property forfeiture or fines

I do not know of any Muslims that want to change any of the criminal laws in the US or change the legality of any civil laws that apply to non-Muslims. The shariah laws in civil matters can only apply if all parties are Muslim and all agree to abide by Shariah.
I know a few but they are mostly nutters I don't think there is usually anything wrong with two ( or more) people contracting however they want.
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Old 10-30-2011, 03:18 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,949 posts, read 20,052,213 times
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In some ways I agree with the premise behind wanting contracts between consenting people to be able to be upheld in courts.
But our laws were made with (supposedly) fairness to all parties in mind and certainly not with favor for religious reasoning.
Muslims want to live here, it must be accepted.

You have the option to do what any American can do.....campaign to have the laws changed in regard to contracts and in the meantime or if not sucessful, settle for the same kind of influence other religions do in order to keep your adherents in line.
For instance, encouraging your Muslim community to not shop at the store of the pork-selling vendor.....to socially ostracize the man who leaves his wife for some chicky and refuses to support her as per your Sharia custom.
We still have some religion based laws and remnants of even more and when they are brought to attention, are usually discarded as unconstitutional.
We certainly don't want new ones unless the reasoning behind them is agreeable and applicable to all Americans.
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Old 10-30-2011, 03:23 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,863 posts, read 74,890,379 times
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im ok with sharia law. breaking away from harsh british law and our civil rights law of last 40 years have left us utterly incapable of punishing violent crime.
our own president is forced to us hit men to defend us against pirates and terrorists bek our courts would have let them all go. america has too many lawyers and too many violent criminals.
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Old 10-31-2011, 04:23 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,949 posts, read 20,052,213 times
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Maybe a post I made in your other thread simply wasn't worth enough consideration to bring a response but in the case it was just overlooked...
Is this what Muslims want for America?

the last line being
"We still have some religion based laws and remnants of even more and when they are brought to attention, are usually discarded as unconstitutional.
We certainly don't want new ones unless the reasoning behind them is agreeable and applicable to all Americans."

I see some of civil Sharia as being possibly favorable to what exists but absolutely do not agree to separate laws for separate groups in the US.
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,363,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Maybe a post I made in your other thread simply wasn't worth enough consideration to bring a response but in the case it was just overlooked...
Is this what Muslims want for America?

the last line being
"We still have some religion based laws and remnants of even more and when they are brought to attention, are usually discarded as unconstitutional.
We certainly don't want new ones unless the reasoning behind them is agreeable and applicable to all Americans."

I see some of civil Sharia as being possibly favorable to what exists but absolutely do not agree to separate laws for separate groups in the US.
I had not over looked the post. It is a very good post. I was looking for a Huffington post article I had read, before replying.

To make the story short. Unlike the UK it is not a question of introducing sharia Civil/Family law into the USA as it has always been here. the issue is that now some states have made them illegal and there is a push to outlaw them in every state. the laws we want in the USA are virtually identical to the Judaic laws that are legal in every State. To be Muslim means to use sharia, to outlaw sharia Civil/Family law effectivaly makes it illegal to be a Muslim in the USA.

We are not demanding nor asking for implementation of the Criminal Hadd/Hadud laws. As it seem is being asked for in the UK. In fact those are not implimented in most Islamic Nations. At the Moment the only Nations that have the Hadd laws as part of their constitution are Saudi and Iran. Both of which use very different madhabs for them, making the penalties for them different in each nation.
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,950 posts, read 31,891,698 times
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Children in Britain are being taught brutal Sharia law punishments, including how
to hack off a criminal’s hand or foot.

So-called ‘weekend schools’ for Muslim pupils as young as six also teach that the penalty for gay sex is execution and that ‘Zionists’ are plotting to take over the world for the Jews.

Read more: Sharia lessons for pupils aged six: BBC uncovers 'weekend schools' | Mail Online
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Old 10-31-2011, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,363,589 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Children in Britain are being taught brutal Sharia law punishments, including how
to hack off a criminal’s hand or foot.

So-called ‘weekend schools’ for Muslim pupils as young as six also teach that the penalty for gay sex is execution and that ‘Zionists’ are plotting to take over the world for the Jews.

Read more: Sharia lessons for pupils aged six: BBC uncovers 'weekend schools' | Mail Online
Sadly I have to agree with you. There is a surplus of nutters in the UK. even worse I have found many of them to have been recent reverts to Islam.

The Mainstream Sunni Imams have been trying to fight this trend for at least 2 years now. But the fruit cakes keep popping out of the oven. Sometimes I think there needs to be a warning in the UK to for young Muslims to avoid Imams who have red Beards and blue eyes.

These jerks represent Islam about as well as Terry Jones or the Westboro Baptist Church represent Christianity.

The UK Imams are taking a stand against the radicals and hopefully they will make a difference.


For example:



As far as anything like this happening in the USA, I doubt if it could. the majority of US Muslims have had family here for many generations. There has been no conflict in the past and no need for any in the future.
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Old 11-02-2011, 02:44 AM
 
912 posts, read 723,637 times
Reputation: 115
Woodrow you've been more than patient in trying to answer some of my confusions and questions in these topics...my interest stems out of things which "seem" to conflict with a sense of harmony
I've been bothered about something you said and may have gotten it wrong. I think you said that in a country of Islamic Rule, if a murder occurs the onus is on the immediate family to press charges...if theres no charge from the family, the crime is not prosecuted... is this true? it doesn't seem to make sense

The second thing that comes to mind is why, if the Islam group is after changing laws, do they want to use Islamic words to define the changes? It seems against mixing in...I think a good salesman would have a different approach. Segregated societies don't work...the reserve idea in the N/A native indian approach was a bad mistake.... mixing in should be first on the list..if not why?..relative to the trouble causers)

Last edited by Blue Hue; 11-02-2011 at 02:56 AM..
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Old 11-02-2011, 06:29 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,440,735 times
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The reality is there can only be one law of the land. Here is the url for an article I read that seems to put it in perspective and to speak to the difference between sharia and halachah which I would recommend folks read.

There Can Only Be One Law of the Land
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