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Old 10-29-2011, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
Can you give an example of a contract that you have made under sharia law that would not be enforceable?
My marriage is not seen as a valid marriage in the 20 states that do not recognize Sharia marriage. If we lived in any of those states I would be under no state obligation to support my wife if I chose not to.
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Old 10-29-2011, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emotionalintel View Post
The problem is that Shariah law is never 'properly applied' even by those who either claim to apply Shariah to territory such as Al- shabbab or the Taliban or supposed pseudo Shariah states such as Saudi Arabia because the death penalty was/is pretty liberally applied without public due process. It's one of those things that never gets 'applied properly' even by the most stringent of advocates.
That would be in criminal cases. I know of no Muslims in the USA that want to change the criminal laws. we simply want our Civil laws to be recognized as being legal. This would relate to things such as business contracts, marriage, divorce, inheritance etc. We are not speaking of anything that involves any type of punishment outside of property forfeiture or fines

I do not know of any Muslims that want to change any of the criminal laws in the US or change the legality of any civil laws that apply to non-Muslims. The shariah laws in civil matters can only apply if all parties are Muslim and all agree to abide by Shariah.
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Old 10-29-2011, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is a naive' understanding of the differences, Wood . . . I am surprised.As long as the conditions of the contract are in writing, are NOT illegal and NOT indefensible in a court of equity, and voluntarily signed by all parties without coercion . . . they are perfectly enforceable in any court of equity in the USA.
Sadly that is not the case. Many of our civil matters are not currently enforceable in court. For example a Muslim is forbidden to sell pork or alcohol products. If a Muslim store owner started selling pork and alcohol products we have no legal way to stop him from doing so.

As for contracts a Shariah divorce is not enforceable in all states. Under shariah law a Muslim husband is obligated to support his wife in the same manner she was supported while married, until she remarries. Plus he is obligated to pay her the agreed upon dower that was named in the Nikkah.

If an ex-husband refused to honor the Nikkah after a divorce, in most states the ex-wife would only be able to collect court-ordered divorce settlement, which would be considerably less that what the wife would be entitled to under shariah.

(Under Shariah the wife gets everything, including continued support, until the time she remarries, except if the divorce was for adultery)
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Old 10-29-2011, 10:02 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,431,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Sadly that is not the case. Many of our civil matters are not currently enforceable in court. For example a Muslim is forbidden to sell pork or alcohol products. If a Muslim store owner started selling pork and alcohol products we have no legal way to stop him from doing so.



Muslims ought not have any right to infringe upon another Muslims rights to free enterprise that is LEGAL under the LAWS of the US.

You just made a large point as far as I am concerned as to just why sharia law has no place in my country or any other democratic country.

First you stop others for selling pork and alcohol, then you stop people for dressing unislamically, then you stop people for not practicing Islam the way you think it ought to be practiced. Where does it stop? Sharia law has no place in a democratic society built on freedom of choice, belief, and a democratic way of life. That is what sharia law will do, it will allow Muslims to control others who profess to be muslim and force them to live by a different set of standards.
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Old 10-29-2011, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
First you stop others for selling pork and alcohol, then you stop people for dressing unislamically, then you stop people for not practicing Islam the way you think it ought to be practiced. Where does it stop? Sharia law has no place in a democratic society built on freedom of choice, belief, and a democratic way of life. That is what sharia law will do, it will allow Muslims to control others who profess to be muslim and force them to live by a different set of standards.
You are correct. we do want those of us who profess to be Muslim, to live as Muslims.

We have nothing that resembles excommunication. If a person is not going to live as a Muslim, they should not claim to be Muslim. Enforceable laws for sharia offenses would eliminate those who are Muslim in name only. A big plus for society as a whole, is it would reduce or eliminate the idiots who want to enforce sharia on a vigilante mentality basis.


A slightly off-topic thought:

The lack of enforceable laws seems to encourage the radical extremists who think they have the right to take matters into their own hands. The result being things like honor killings, forced marriages and other misuse of Islam. ( A little side tracked here as this is sliding over into criminal offenses, I do not advocate the changing of a countries criminal codes/laws)
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Old 10-29-2011, 12:50 PM
 
40,177 posts, read 26,806,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You are correct. we do want those of us who profess to be Muslim, to live as Muslims.

We have nothing that resembles excommunication. If a person is not going to live as a Muslim, they should not claim to be Muslim. Enforceable laws for sharia offenses would eliminate those who are Muslim in name only. A big plus for society as a whole, is it would reduce or eliminate the idiots who want to enforce sharia on a vigilante mentality basis.
What kind of impotent God requires humans to enforce His desires??? Anything FORCED is useless as it does NOT reflect the individual's status or development of spiritual maturity. What a pointless dogma.
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Old 10-29-2011, 01:16 PM
 
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[quote=Woodrow LI;21488713]You are correct. we do want those of us who profess to be Muslim, to live as Muslims.

Even if that means forcing others to live according what you or others see as Islam. I don't follow the laws of kashrut but it is part of the mitzvot. I do not want other more observant Jews telling me how to eat. I do not want more observant Jews telling me how to live as a Jew. I have freedoms to live and practice as a Jew and how it is now may change, but I have that freedom. I don't have to worry about more observant Jews coming after me in order to enforce Jewish law. I suspect Muslims do not want other Muslims telling them how to live either.

We have nothing that resembles excommunication. If a person is not going to live as a Muslim, they should not claim to be Muslim. Enforceable laws for sharia offenses would eliminate those who are Muslim in name only. A big plus for society as a whole, is it would reduce or eliminate the idiots who want to enforce sharia on a vigilante mentality basis.

Again that is your interpretation. Whether you agree or not there are many Muslims who see themselves as Muslim but do not adhere to the more conservative aspects of Islam. They do not cover, or dress Islamically.
The whole idea of Sharia being able to get rid of all those they see as not living Islamically or being "true" Muslims sends shivers down my spine and is the whole reason for not having any form of sharia.


A slightly off-topic thought:

The lack of enforceable laws seems to encourage the radical extremists who think they have the right to take matters into their own hands. The result being things like honor killings, forced marriages and other misuse of Islam. ( A little side tracked here as this is sliding over into criminal offenses, I do not advocate the changing of a countries criminal codes/laws)

Yes you do because for Muslims to live under sharia the laws of the land will be usurped. To tell a person he cannot run a store that sells alcohol tells him he cannot run a business in a democratic country. Selling alcohol is not against the laws of the US. Telling people they have to dress Islamically goes against the laws of the land which allow freedom to dress as one wishes and not to be under the thumb of religion or oppressed by religion. Having sharia law takes away the rights of freedom of religious practice.
Some of what you have said is on par with the extremists. To control other Muslims and insure they adhere to Islam in the same way the extremists do. Sometimes you come across as one who lives in a democratic nation and sometimes you come across as a person who lives in a theocracy run under sharia.

Last edited by Jazzymom; 10-29-2011 at 01:24 PM..
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Old 10-29-2011, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Florida
19,847 posts, read 19,954,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You are correct. we do want those of us who profess to be Muslim, to live as Muslims.

We have nothing that resembles excommunication. If a person is not going to live as a Muslim, they should not claim to be Muslim. Enforceable laws for sharia offenses would eliminate those who are Muslim in name only. A big plus for society as a whole, is it would reduce or eliminate the idiots who want to enforce sharia on a vigilante mentality basis.
)
So what, may I ask, would this type of Sharia violater be subjected to?
You have said many times that anyone that says they are Muslim are taken at face value.
How would you "eliminate" him?
Would he just no longer be able to say he is Muslim?(And how could you enforce that?)
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Old 10-29-2011, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,119,851 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If a Muslim store owner started selling pork and alcohol products we have no legal way to stop him from doing so.
And that is exactly what we Americans want.

Since it is legal to sell alcohol and pork, I think a Muslim owner has a perfect right to sell these products.
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Old 10-29-2011, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,119,851 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
we do want those of us who profess to be Muslim, to live as Muslims.
You seem to be an educated person, but what you are saying is silly.

It would be like me saying that a fellow Atheist should not be allowed to go to church.
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