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Old 10-29-2011, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,121,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emotionalintel View Post
You agree that people should be able to contract in whatever way they wish ( barring basic contract obligations), but don't want the courts to adjudicate breaches of those contracts?
That's right. If two people make a "pinkie promise" to each other, I don't think our courts should be enforcing the terms of that promise.
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Old 10-29-2011, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
So what, may I ask, would this type of Sharia violater be subjected to?
You have said many times that anyone that says they are Muslim are taken at face value.
How would you "eliminate" him?
Would he just no longer be able to say he is Muslim?(And how could you enforce that?)
Because by saying one is Muslim would mean they agree to live in accordance with Sharia(religious) law. To not be liable under the law they would have to stop calling themselves Muslim. As it is we have too many wearing the name of Muslim, but do not follow Islam.



We are obligated to accept anyone as being Muslim if they claim to be Muslim. There are no rituals or joining procedures a person goes through to be a Muslim. However, I feel if a person is going to wear the name of Muslim, they should be obligated to act like a Muslim. A very large percentage of Muslims do live a life of following Islam to the best of their ability, but those who are Muslim in name only give us a bad reputation as their actions often are very anti-Islamic (ie-terrorism, forced marriages, hatred of Christians, Jews and Sabians etc) If they want to be called Muslim they should follow Islam (Charity, Caring for all people, no discrimination against anyone, The preservation of life for all people, freedom of choice for religion belief/disbelief) To be called Muslim, they should follow all Islamic responsibilities to the best of their ability and accept liability for not doing so.

But also note that what I and most Muslims want under civil Shariah law in the USA is for it to be legal only for Muslims and only if all parties involved are in agreement of a shariah decision. Under shariah law for civil issues all parties have to be in agreement with who will be the arbitrator of the dispute.

I do not want Islam forced upon non Muslims. but I do strongly feel that those of us who call ourselves Muslim, should act like Muslims and not as disbelievers, terrorists, criminals or otherwise not following the basic tenets of Islam.

It is a time we Muslim took a hard stand against those who act under the name of Muslim and commit atrocities ranging from the minor, such as selling pork to the major such as suicide bombings. None of those have a place in Islam and we Muslims do need to be certain those calling themselves Muslims really do follow Islam.
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Old 10-29-2011, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,511,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Because by saying one is Muslim would mean they agree to live in accordance with Sharia(religious) law. To not be liable under the law they would have to stop calling themselves Muslim. As it is we have too many wearing the name of Muslim, but do not follow Islam.



We are obligated to accept anyone as being Muslim if they claim to be Muslim. There are no rituals or joining procedures a person goes through to be a Muslim. However, I feel if a person is going to wear the name of Muslim, they should be obligated to act like a Muslim. A very large percentage of Muslims do live a life of following Islam to the best of their ability, but those who are Muslim in name only give us a bad reputation as their actions often are very anti-Islamic (ie-terrorism, forced marriages, hatred of Christians, Jews and Sabians etc) If they want to be called Muslim they should follow Islam (Charity, Caring for all people, no discrimination against anyone, The preservation of life for all people, freedom of choice for religion belief/disbelief) To be called Muslim, they should follow all Islamic responsibilities to the best of their ability and accept liability for not doing so.

But also note that what I and most Muslims want under civil Shariah law in the USA is for it to be legal only for Muslims and only if all parties involved are in agreement of a shariah decision. Under shariah law for civil issues all parties have to be in agreement with who will be the arbitrator of the dispute.

I do not want Islam forced upon non Muslims. but I do strongly feel that those of us who call ourselves Muslim, should act like Muslims and not as disbelievers, terrorists, criminals or otherwise not following the basic tenets of Islam.

It is a time we Muslim took a hard stand against those who act under the name of Muslim and commit atrocities ranging from the minor, such as selling pork to the major such as suicide bombings. None of those have a place in Islam and we Muslims do need to be certain those calling themselves Muslims really do follow Islam.

But from your own personal judgment do you accept yourself as the one of such judgment? Sinners may be judged for their sin and no longer anyway be the committers of your 'atrocities'. Then what's the difference if they choose to apply secular principles instead of Muslim legal principles?
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Old 10-29-2011, 02:55 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,432,118 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Because by saying one is Muslim would mean they agree to live in accordance with Sharia(religious) law. To not be liable under the law they would have to stop calling themselves Muslim. As it is we have too many wearing the name of Muslim, but do not follow Islam.



We are obligated to accept anyone as being Muslim if they claim to be Muslim. There are no rituals or joining procedures a person goes through to be a Muslim. However, I feel if a person is going to wear the name of Muslim, they should be obligated to act like a Muslim. A very large percentage of Muslims do live a life of following Islam to the best of their ability, but those who are Muslim in name only give us a bad reputation as their actions often are very anti-Islamic (ie-terrorism, forced marriages, hatred of Christians, Jews and Sabians etc) If they want to be called Muslim they should follow Islam (Charity, Caring for all people, no discrimination against anyone, The preservation of life for all people, freedom of choice for religion belief/disbelief) To be called Muslim, they should follow all Islamic responsibilities to the best of their ability and accept liability for not doing so.

But also note that what I and most Muslims want under civil Shariah law in the USA is for it to be legal only for Muslims and only if all parties involved are in agreement of a shariah decision. Under shariah law for civil issues all parties have to be in agreement with who will be the arbitrator of the dispute.

I do not want Islam forced upon non Muslims. but I do strongly feel that those of us who call ourselves Muslim, should act like Muslims and not as disbelievers, terrorists, criminals or otherwise not following the basic tenets of Islam.

It is a time we Muslim took a hard stand against those who act under the name of Muslim and commit atrocities ranging from the minor, such as selling pork to the major such as suicide bombings. None of those have a place in Islam and we Muslims do need to be certain those calling themselves Muslims really do follow Islam.
Woodrow you are very judgmental. The selling of pork is not the same as suicide bombing. You ought to worry about your own house and not the houses of others. You do not know how others live. There is not one way to be muslim, there are 5 pillars and those who follow those 5 pillars and say shahadah are muslim. there are sufi, shi'ah, and Sunni. There are conservative and liberal, you are not the judge, only G-d.

The problem is the judgement coming from Muslims as to how all Muslims ought to live or they are not Muslims.

I am utterly speechless. Sharia has no place in a civilized world and the more you say the more I am convinces that Sharia has no place in a democratic world and all who love freedom be they Muslim or non Muslim need to fight any form of sharia.
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Old 10-29-2011, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgnostic View Post
But from your own personal judgment do you accept yourself as the one of such judgment? Sinners may be judged for their sin and no longer anyway be the committers of your 'atrocities'. Then what's the difference if they choose to apply secular principles instead of Muslim legal principles?
I agree they should have the right and option for accepting secular law if for any reason any one involved does not want to have a Shariah arbitration. However, I think it would be fair to question the person's sincerity about being Muslim.


Most Muslims would prefer a Shariah decision regarding civil matters. We just want them to be recognized as being legal for when we do use such. As it is most of us in the USA do use Shariah arbitration for civil matters, but it has no legal standing and is only as valid as the word of those involved. We would like it to have the recognition of being a legal obligation when we choose a shariah decision for a civil matter. Oddly a number of States do accept Shariah law for civil issues as legal. Only about 20 states refuse to accept all shariah contracts as being legally binding. Some states allow only a few such as the Marriage Nikkah as being legal. One or two states do accept all shariah contracts as being legally binding.

Islam is very community oriented. Every person and business in an Islamic community is obligated to return a portion of their earnings to the community as charity. However, if we know a person has earned any part of their income by illegal means and we have reason to know so, we are forbidden to accept charity from that person or business. so the issue about a Muslim selling pork does become a community issue. If we know even a small portion of the persons income came from a Haram source (ie selling pork) we can not accept any charity from that person or business.
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Old 10-29-2011, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,121,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
However, I think it would be fair to question the person's sincerity about being Muslim.
Oh sure, you can question their sincerity all you want, but they don't have to answer.

If they want to claim they are Muslim and sell Honey-Baked Hams (yum) it is not a problem in the Land of the Free.
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Old 10-29-2011, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,121,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
we Muslims do need to be certain those calling themselves Muslims really do follow Islam.
You're getting kind of creepy, Woody.

We don't want a society where our behavior is always being watched and judged by others.

Do you have any idea what America stands for?
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Old 10-29-2011, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,121,072 times
Reputation: 1399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
I am utterly speechless. Sharia has no place in a civilized world and the more you say the more I am convinces that Sharia has no place in a democratic world and all who love freedom be they Muslim or non Muslim need to fight any form of sharia.
Jazzy, you are absolutely right! I have been very shocked by the things he has said.
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Old 10-29-2011, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,317,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Oh sure, you can question their sincerity all you want, but they don't have to answer.

If they want to claim they are Muslim and sell Honey-Baked Hams (yum) it is not a problem in the Land of the Free.
Actually only Allaah(swt) knows who is a Muslim. I nor anybody lse knows what is in a person's heart, but I do have the right to question a person's sincerity if their actions are unIslamic. In fact if a person is climing to be Muslim is doing something unIslamic, I am obligated to tell them it is not Islamic, and explain why it is not. But, they do have the obligation to do their own research and verify if I am correct in saying so. I also have to be prepared to show validation as to why I believe something is not Islamic.
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Old 10-29-2011, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,121,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
they do have the obligation to do their own research and verify if I am correct in saying so.
As usual, Woody, you are wrong. They are under no obligation to respond to your comments.

In America, we have the right to ignore people like you.
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