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Old 10-29-2011, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Shariah is a word quite often misunderstood and misused in the media. Just what it is, is either ultra simple or ultra complex, depending upon what one sees it as being.

The intent of sharia seems to be that of fair treatment of all people and the elimination of the need for earthly punishment. Islamic jurisprudence took several hundred years to develop into sharia. It is actually 5 different legal systems (Madhabs) 4 followed by Sunni and one followed by Shia.

Ideally Sharia is applicable only to Muslims and like secular law does take on different forms depending on the country it is used in. there is a considerable level of input from the people as to how it is applied. The civil laws are pretty much the same for all of the Madhabs of Sharia. But the criminal laws do carry a wide diversity of the application of punishment for criminal cases. Like secular nations there are civil laws and criminal laws. Civil laws are generally resolved through arbitration with all parties involved needing to be in agreement as to who will be the arbitrator. The goal being a fair solution to any issues.

Criminal laws are basically the same for each country that uses sharia law in criminal cases. However, the punishments will differ among the madhabs. The Hanafi madhab is the most lenient and does not carry any earthly punishment for most crimes, with the belief that if the crime is not harming others, the punishment is only between the person and Allaah(swt).

However all of the madhabs are in agreement there are 5 crimes that do require an earthly punishment these 5 Crimes are:

Stealing
Armed Robbery
Murder
Sex Crimes
Drunkenness

There is a maximum penalty allowed for each. but the courts can ask for a lesser punishment. the Hanafi courts oppose the use of the death penalty while some madhabs require it were it can be used as the maximum punishment.

While the same crimes are recognized in each madhab, the earthly punishment will differ according to which madhab the country follows.

While the maximum punishments permitted for crimes can be quite brutal and horrific the intent is that the punishment will discourage anyone from violating the laws. Since the punishment can be so harsh, the legal process of proving a person guilty is very rigid. Many sexually related crimes carry such rigid criteria for proof, they can not be proven and therefore are not punishable in most Islamic nations.

Contrary to popular belief, apostasy is not considered a shariah offense.

As Sharia law can only be used for Muslims, it really should not concern non-Muslims. Most Muslims do desire sharia law over secular law even in countries were they have a choice for following either.

The wisdom behind Sharia is that it encourages Muslims to learn more about Islam.

The down side is rather recent and involves people disobeying Islam, under the pretext they are following Sharia.
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Old 10-29-2011, 09:07 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
The wisdom behind Sharia is that it encourages Muslims to learn more about Islam.
How can God have five separate laws? How can God legislate his punishments to a bunch of wanna be jury priests? How can Sharia have any true transcendental wisdom behind it? When it is carved only by mere humans?
Sharia cannot encourage Muslims to learn about Islam... it would only encourage them to follow the laws their self-righteous fellows set up for them. It encourages no criticism of Islam, only blind obedience to the self-righteous Imams.

Our secular laws encourage self-criticism, and are thus MOST noble, and MOST honorable. How is this not so? In the same ways... our Agnostic sciences encourage self-criticism as well, and this has been our greatest triumph. Once the Califs standardized the Qurans and Hadiths they destroyed their Caliphates... Sharia law ended science and progress in the conquered nations, and within Arabia as well. Is any of this not true?

How can God continue to wash us Agnostics in blessings equal and surpassing those of the Muslims?
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Old 10-30-2011, 05:04 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
How can God have five separate laws? How can God legislate his punishments to a bunch of wanna be jury priests? How can Sharia have any true transcendental wisdom behind it? When it is carved only by mere humans?
The laws are the same for the 5 madhabs. The difference comes in regards to what punishments if any are acceptable by the community. The laws only specify the maximum punishment permitted. But we all are encouraged to seek reason for leniency. The hanafi seem to put more emphasis on leniency. The Shii tend to stress maximum punishment as being best as they seem to believe that will discourge people from breaking the law and have the overall effect of reducing punishments.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Sharia cannot encourage Muslims to learn about Islam... it would only encourage them to follow the laws their self-righteous fellows set up for them. It encourages no criticism of Islam, only blind obedience to the self-righteous Imams.
Yes some Muslims do that. But they fail to see we are required to question all things and not follow any human leaders without verifying we have proven to ourselves they are correct. Islam teaches self responsibility and constant verification from as many sources possible. We can not use the excuse somebody misled us as we alone are responsible for our choices.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Our secular laws encourage self-criticism, and are thus MOST noble, and MOST honorable. How is this not so? In the same ways... our Agnostic sciences encourage self-criticism as well, and this has been our greatest triumph. Once the Califs standardized the Qurans and Hadiths they destroyed their Caliphates... Sharia law ended science and progress in the conquered nations, and within Arabia as well. Is any of this not true?
Misuse of sharia is the culprit. Some who study Islamic Jurisprudence do have ulterior motives. But what is more dangerous are those who do not understand shariah taking sharia into their own hands.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
How can God continue to wash us Agnostics in blessings equal and surpassing those of the Muslims?
All people will be rewarded for their good. Even atheists and agnostics, although the reward may be limited to that of earthly rewards.

We believe each and every person will be rewarded highly for their good deeds. That reward can be here, in the hereafter or both.

Even some very evil people have done some good and they too will be rewarded for any good they have done. Although the other side is we all, will also be punished,either here, in the hereafter or both, for the evil we do .
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Old 10-30-2011, 06:23 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Shariah law favours brutality and violence whenever possible. It's a leftover from the Dark Ages.
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:01 AM
 
Location: egypt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
Shariah law favours brutality and violence whenever possible. It's a leftover from the Dark Ages.
siceintists of islam says that if someone knew what is shariah laws correctly in it's details from islamic prespective he will conclude that the God made these laws for not executing
there are many limititation and conditions must be fulfilled before executing the harsh punishments of shariah
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
Shariah law favours brutality and violence whenever possible. It's a leftover from the Dark Ages.
You may want to learn a bit about the Hanafi madhab.

When you speak of sharia, you need to understand what madhab is being spoken of. There is no one thing called Sharia. No matter what madhab we follow we all call our laws Sharia. Be it Shafi'i, Hanbali, Maliki, Hanafi or the Shi'a Jafari along with 3 other schools of sharia that are not considered to be true Madhabs by most Muslims those being Zaidi, Ibadi and Zahiri. What the media and most westerners believe to be sharia is actually wahabi' and in a few instances Salafi. Salafi seems to be attempting to take control in Egypt although it is a rather new American formed Madhab

Most sunni follow one of the 4 earliest Madhabs. Saudi uses the Hanbali, most oriental nation sunni follow the Shafi'i madhab and many non Arab, non oriental Sunni follow the Hanafi. The Shi'i follow only the Jafari, Iran is the only Shi'i nation and the only nation that uses Jafari Shariah as National law.

The Sufi while usually recognized as Sunni do not follow any Madhab for their Shariah and tend to consider the law of the land as being legal Shariah.

The biggest misunderstanding I see is most people are seeing wahabi and Salafi as being sharia. The majority of our lunatic fringe groups seem to be wahabi. Although wahabi originated in the 18th century, it is now gaining a strong foot hold in Saudi, the SWAT region of Pakistan and among the Taliban. It is also being promoted in the UK

Most American Sunni are of the Hanafi Madhab. Followed closely by Shafi'i both being very liberal and progressive Madhabs.

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 10-30-2011 at 07:38 AM..
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
siceintists of islam says that if someone knew what is shariah laws correctly in it's details from islamic prespective he will conclude that the God made these laws for not executing
there are many limititation and conditions must be fulfilled before executing the harsh punishments of shariah
I know a few people with doctorates in Islamic jurisprudence. and they do say very much the same thing.

If properly followed there is no way to carry out any of the harsh punishments. They are to serve as reminders of the seriousness of the crime, not to be implemented as punishments by humans. We are actually required to temper law with mercy.
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Old 10-30-2011, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
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Woodrow LI,

Please post or link to the sexual criminal laws.

I am very familiar with American Federal and State laws related to sexual offenses, as I used to provide offense specific treatment to sex offenders.

I want to see how comprehensive these Islamic laws are. I also fear that if the standards to establish guilt are too high, many offenders get away Scot free, while their victims get no justice and no protection from their abusers. I am also concerned about the reports I hear about female victims being punished when it was their abusers that were responsible for the act. Also, do these laws make it impossible for homosexuals to have legal intercourse.

To be frank, I don't like the idea of static laws that cannot be changed as we learn more about human behavior and face new technological challenges. I believe Sharia law was created by men with all the prejudices of their time, and not by God, so those laws can be improved as we learn more.

Furthermore, you said that non-Muslims shouldn't concern ourselves with Sharia law because it wasn't intended for us. I disagree. If a religious system is not protecting the vulnerable, it is everyone's concern. For instance, if it is true that female victims are being corporeally punished by Sharia law for being raped, as a human being, it is my business to get involved to protect them from their abusers.

I don't care what religion a person is in, no one has the right to abuse others. If the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is forcing young girls into marriages, I don't care if they say I shouldn't be concerned because it is a matter of their faith, you can't abuse people and then hide behind your religion.
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Old 10-30-2011, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,497,318 times
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Oh, and concerning the idea that the threat of severe punishments will deter crimes...We have a ton of research showing that the threat of the death penalty versus a maximum of life imprisonment makes no difference in the number of murders committed. They have both looked at differences in the murder rates between states that have the death penalty and those that don't, and they have looked at murder rates in the same state both before and after a change in its death penalty policy.

Now, we are not in a position to extrapolate for other types of crimes and other punishments. But, we can say that it is not true that a more severe punishment is always a more effective deterrent.
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Old 10-30-2011, 09:09 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
Woodrow LI,

Please post or link to the sexual criminal laws.

I am very familiar with American Federal and State laws related to sexual offenses, as I used to provide offense specific treatment to sex offenders.

I want to see how comprehensive these Islamic laws are. I also fear that if the standards to establish guilt are too high, many offenders get away Scot free, while their victims get no justice and no protection from their abusers. I am also concerned about the reports I hear about female victims being punished when it was their abusers that were responsible for the act. Also, do these laws make it impossible for homosexuals to have legal intercourse.

To be frank, I don't like the idea of static laws that cannot be changed as we learn more about human behavior and face new technological challenges. I believe Sharia law was created by men with all the prejudices of their time, and not by God, so those laws can be improved as we learn more.

Furthermore, you said that non-Muslims shouldn't concern ourselves with Sharia law because it wasn't intended for us. I disagree. If a religious system is not protecting the vulnerable, it is everyone's concern. For instance, if it is true that female victims are being corporeally punished by Sharia law for being raped, as a human being, it is my business to get involved to protect them from their abusers.

I don't care what religion a person is in, no one has the right to abuse others. If the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is forcing young girls into marriages, I don't care if they say I shouldn't be concerned because it is a matter of their faith, you can't abuse people and then hide behind your religion.
When properly applied in nations that have Sharia law. it is allowed for non-Muslims to have their own laws. There is conflict if a Non-muslim commits a crime against a Muslim or if a Muslim commits a crime against a non-Muslim. Generally secular laws will be established for when that is the case. However, it is generally accepted that the non-Islamic laws will apply only in non-Muslim portions of the nation. It is assumed that any person in a Muslim section will be Muslim and treated as such and anyone in a non-Muslim section will not be Muslim

The sexual laws are quite complex. I will see if I can find some extensive links. The University of Texas in Austin has a very extensive department of Islamic Jurisprudence and is gaining a good reputation for training non Arab speaking Islamic lawyers. I may be able to find something online from there.

However I do know off hand that things like the laws regarding homosexuality, adultery and other sexually related prohibitions are virtually impossible to convict a person under as each requires four independent witnesses who saw the actual act at the same time and can describe it fully to the smallest detail. Also if in the event the court finds the defendant innocent each witness will be subject to the punishment the accused would have faced. This makes it difficult to find 4 witnesses willing to come forward.

In the entire history of shariah no woman has ever been executed under shariah law, although many have been under national law being called shariah. there have only been 5 periods of History during which true shariah criminal law has ever been implimented, those being when Saudi was under the Rule of the original Sahabi and the first 4 Imams.

Since then it has been national/cultural law being called shariah. Many if not most Muslims are in agreement that there will be no true Shariah law until the Return of Jesus(as) and the coming of the Mehdi at which time the next and final Caliphate will be formed.

Shariah today is basically only possible for Civil non criminal laws. Shariah, except for civil law, is not legally enforceable and today is basically a guide for proper Islamic behavior.
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