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Old 11-06-2011, 05:01 PM
 
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A similar issue occurred a few years ago at MSP (Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport) where the majority of the taxi drivers serving the airport were Muslim (largely part of a local Somali population) and many of them routinely refused to transport any passengers carrying alcohol. As this article relates, over 5000 would-be customers were refused service over a period of time.
If you drink, some cabbies won't drive - CNN

There were also similar issues with some passengers being refused service because they had dogs with them, including working dogs (ie, guide dogs).

Eventually, the Metropolitan Airports Commission began a policy of suspending, then revoking taxi licenses to serve the airport for such offense.
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Old 11-06-2011, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Thanks for all of your responses. I was curious how you all felt about this topic.

We live in Northern Virginia where there are many people from other countries and a lot of them work in our supermarkets. I know a few who are Muslim and I will ask how they feel about what you all said.

We have had a couple Muslim cab drivers from Pakistan and I asked them how they felt about other religions. They said they had respect for Jews and Christians (maybe because they figured I was in one of those groups) but they were both very emphatic when they declared that Muslims and Hindus could NOT live together.

One of them said that Jews, Christians, and Muslims were all people who believed in one god and followed the holy book, but Hindus just worshiped animals like cows.

I thought it was very interesting. I find religion to be fascinating. Of course, I can take a laid-back attitude toward religion because no religion has ever caused me any problems, and I realize that is not true for some of you.
The issue between Muslims and Hindus is primarily a national issue an India/Pakistan issue. In some ways Pakistan is similar to Palestine, Pakistan was a State of India and in 1946 was set aside as a Muslim state. Many Muslims from India were deported to Pakistan and many Hindus of Pakistan were deported to India. There has been hard feelings between Hindus and Muslims in the area ever since. Although elsewhere Hindus and Muslims do live side by side. Pakistan has angered India by supplying Military help to Sri Lanka (See HERE and HERE for more info)

Also Muslims still living in India often face discrimination by the majority Hindus. There are many injustices committed by both in the region. Some examples:

HERE

HERE

HERE
(http://voi.org/books/mla/ - broken link)

A strange bit of news you will not find in most Western Media: HERE
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Old 11-06-2011, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
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Those are great news posts, Woodrow, especially the one about the Muslims demonstrating in support of the Christians.

Sometimes you wonder if the good points about religion outweigh the friction it causes between groups. However, if there was no religion, the different groups would still find things to fight about.
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
These people are making fools of us by claiming that the rules which apply to everyone else don't apply to them because their religious views exempt them from man - made laws, rules and codes of conduct, and by playing the respect card they get away with it. I say an end to it :mad:
These rules which apply to everyone are man made Christian-centric, not exactly religiously neutral if you are not a Protestant Christian.
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Those are great news posts, Woodrow, especially the one about the Muslims demonstrating in support of the Christians.

Sometimes you wonder if the good points about religion outweigh the friction it causes between groups. However, if there was no religion, the different groups would still find things to fight about.
Although it is difficult to find any war that did not use religion as justification, I do agree with you we would simply find another reason to justify war.

It is actually very difficult for us humans to kill other humans without us finding something we believe to be justification for doing so.

The common lie "Because we are ordered by God(swt)" is the easiest lie for despots to make us believe and if we believe that, we feel justified to kill our fellow humans. Until 10 years later we discover we were lied to and we become the losers and suffer immensely, until we can find reason to forgive ourselves.

One of the tools used to enable soldiers to fight is to dehumanize the enemy. This is often done by showing evidence they are pagans and do not believe in God(swt) and if they win our grandchildren will all be Pagans or Atheists or Catholics or Protestants or Mormons or Muslims or Hindus or whatever is not the dominate belief of the country we live in.

But wars have been fought over other reasons, land, resources, political ideology, race, wealth etc. If we did not have religion to justify our inhumanity towards others we would have to become honest about our reason for war and justify it by the actual reason we are fighting. That may hinder the popularity for war and ruin our image of John Wayne in his war movies.

(Oddly John Wayne never served in the military) General Jimmy Stewart did and did serve in combat, but like most soldiers never made a name in war movies.
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Old 11-07-2011, 02:18 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post

This makes me seethe, whether it's a muslim checkout girl who won't handle bacon, a Catholic who doesn't want the shop to sell contraceptives, a registrar who won't marry gay couples and, yes, Amish who refuse to have warning signs on their buggys on the roads outside Amishstan and -oh, yes - even a stewardess who wanted an airline to rewrite their dress code just to enable her to flaunt her crucifix pendant at everyone.

These people are making fools of us by claiming that the rules which apply to everyone else don't apply to them because their religious views exempt them from man - made laws, rules and codes of conduct, and by playing the respect card they get away with it. I say an end to it
I guess if you're atheist the "State" or "Community" is maybe going to be the thing "higher than self." So I suppose if I were atheist maybe I'd think like this. Although, probably not as I think I'd be more individualistic/liberty-minded even if atheist. I mean seeing as I was raised in US-culture and not one of the more statist cultures of Europe.

But I'm theist and American so the European-way, or the way of most of Europe, is not my way. I can try to understand it, but on this matter I don't prefer it. Also being a theist I think there are things greater than the State. I think even if I could accept the European way as right I would also still say that Amish or Catholics should disobey that way. Anyway being American we tend to value the individual conscience. So when we had military conscription aka "The Draft" members of some churches could get out of it or could be allowed to serve the government in "non-military" capacities instead. And people can go to private schools that might not teach the values of "The State" or how it defines things.

I do remember, from my times with Europeans, they often find this shocking and weird. In Europe, traditionally, that kind of thing maybe did inevitably lead to anarchy or balkanization or whatever. (I think even among us Catholics many European cardinals seem to almost naturally assume a very active and invasive state as necessary to avoid exploitation) And there is some line even with us. Even in the US you can't do just anything and justify it as religion. Polygamy is not recognized and although some churches are allowed use of hallucinogens I'm not sure many or any are allowed to use the "harder" drugs. We put the dividing line further than you do, maybe further than your history would indicate makes sense. However your history isn't our history. We didn't have "The Thirty Years War" or "Roundheads vs Cavaliers" or what have you. Things worked different for us. So we've managed to have religious-separatists, like the Amish or what have you, for centuries with minimal kerfuffle.

Fine if it still horrifies you. Don't live here then and I will likewise avoid Britain.
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Old 11-07-2011, 05:57 AM
 
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Thanks for your reply Thom and Walter.

The way I see it is like this. If we have laws, they apply. If they are nonsense, or wrong or obsolete we should change them - which is why man made law is better than supposedly divine law (which gets modified anyway, in response to changed conditions, and don't anyone try to tell me it doesn't happen).

While it probably seems reasonable to a theist of particular stripe to approve subordinating man made law to religious inclinations I wonder whether they would approve so much if they found other religions getting exemptions which they were still subject to? This somewhat addresses Walter's point, more of which below.

Well, perhaps they wouldn't mind as Thom appears to show sympathy with the Amish. They are attractive with their hint of a simpler peaceful lifestyle many of us wish we could get back to, the old pioneering values, and such nice non - violent people.. yep.

But as came out in the discussion, they were being selfish or their religion made them so and they were dangerous. They were jailed and rightly so and should be jailed until they accept the laws of the land in which they live. The law of the US, it seems, agrees with me, not Thom.

To take Walter's point about laws having a Christian influence, I would rather suppose that laws arise because of conditions and are man - made responses to social needs rather than a set of religious codes. In Israel it might be different. Is bacon sold anywhere there? I suppose it must be or the King David hotel breakfast wouldn't appeal to me. But is is banned by law or not? I'd guess not, because in a society of jewish (and muslim of course) behaviour the social need isn't there. The religious element simply would not become apparent.

Of course if bacon is against the law, you'll tell me. However, if it is allowed for the Goy tourists, isn't that giving them exemption? Suppose bacon and eggs is on the menu. That wouldn't entitle a Christian to walk into a jewish restaurant and demand bacon and unpack some if they didn't have it and demand it be cooked for him because his religious views differed.

There's a difference in exemption where it doesn't affect others. The Amish can drive black buggies in the pitch dark on their own land, if they want, and anyone driving there has the responsibility to be very careful. But. when they drive their damn' prams outside their own area, then they should observe the laws like everyone else does.

Thus, when I fly an airline, I wouldn't dream of taking my own booze on a dry plane. I'll find an airline which doesn't tell me I can't have a drink. Thus, those who are arrested for drinking in Arab countries where it is permitted know the law and chose to flout it and they deserve what they get. I will not join in the chorus of 'let our people go' we often get from their fellow citizens. Mind, I might disapprove a public flogging and suggest a fine, and deportation would fit the bill. But their laws, after all.

Thus a Jewish waitress who objects to serving bacon should find another hotel. A muslim checkout girl should find a store that doesn't sell bacon and a registrar should find another job if the law now allows same - sex marriage.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-07-2011 at 06:20 AM..
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Suppose bacon and eggs is on the menu. That wouldn't entitle a Christian to walk into a jewish restaurant and demand bacon and unpack some if they didn't have it and demand it be cooked for him because his religious views differed.
Christians are not required to eat bacon or any other non-kosher food, and neither are Christians prohibited from eating kosher food.
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Thus a Jewish waitress who objects to serving bacon should find another hotel.
Except in extreme circumstances (no other source of income), an observant Jew is prohibited from earning an income by doing something which is prohibited by Mitzvot (Commandments).
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:45 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
Except in extreme circumstances (no other source of income), an observant Jew is prohibited from earning an income by doing something which is prohibited by Mitzvot (Commandments).
Which is similar to the Islamic concept. A Muslim is to avoid any employment that requires doing something prohibited, unless it is the only source of income. In which case they should seek other employment and change jobs as soon as possible or find the means to move to where they can find permitted employment.
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