U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-15-2012, 05:03 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,255 posts, read 4,746,222 times
Reputation: 1527

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There is no Islamic dogma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
[T]he Muslims who actually follow the Qur'an are the most peaceful among us.
I think you're being a bit disingenuous here. Perhaps you don't like the word "dogma", but you obviously do believe that Islam has objective doctrinal content, else you wouldn't claim that "Muslims who actually follow the Qur'an are the most peaceful".

Any discussion of Islam needs to start with a valid premise, so I will propose the following: "The religion of Islam teaches something objective and definable (though not necessarily coherent), however many interpretations there may be. Therefore the content of Islamic doctrine matters and is a powerful influence on the behavior of Muslims." Fair enough? I would suggest that anyone who rejects this premise is simply trying to avoid the conversation.

Blackfeet is certainly correct that the existential threat is not individual Muslims, per se, but Muslims who follow a certain plausible interpretation of Islam. I would add that the decentralized nature of Islam is a bug, not a feature, making Islam all the more dangerous: Islamists are unrestrained by any commonly recognized Islamic authority.

I believe that the majority of Muslims in the United States are peaceful and do not want conflict with their neighbors. But that's really beside the point. Wherever Islam exists, there will be a certain percentage of believers whose plausible interpretation of their holy texts - plausible because it is historically mainstream and has been the source of Islam's strength and energy through the centuries - render them violently hostile to anything non-Islamic. Lukewarm and liberal Muslims are always at risk of being converted to a more rigorous and consistent form of Islam.

Another issue is the question of whether Islam in any form is compatible with the Anglo-American political tradition. Christianity is not only compatible, as has been proved over many centuries, but is the historical foundation of our system of government. Islam, on the other hand, has never been able to so much as peacefully co-exist within a republican form of government except in the smallest, most inconsequential numbers. That is not to say that republican governments are better than all alternatives - I have a preference for constitutional monarchy myself - but the American political tradition is what it is.

The first article mentioned in the OP shows clearly how the mere presence of Muslims in concentrated numbers forces everyone to change and accommodate them. The objective result is that Christian influence is driven out of the public square to make way for the sensibilities of Islam. As a Christian and a Catholic, I don't appreciate this at all, to say the least.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-15-2012, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,366,469 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
I think you're being a bit disingenuous here. Perhaps you don't like the word "dogma", but you obviously do believe that Islam has objective doctrinal content, else you wouldn't claim that "Muslims who actually follow the Qur'an are the most peaceful".

Any discussion of Islam needs to start with a valid premise, so I will propose the following: "The religion of Islam teaches something objective and definable (though not necessarily coherent), however many interpretations there may be. Therefore the content of Islamic doctrine matters and is a powerful influence on the behavior of Muslims." Fair enough? I would suggest that anyone who rejects this premise is simply trying to avoid the conversation.

Blackfeet is certainly correct that the existential threat is not individual Muslims, per se, but Muslims who follow a certain plausible interpretation of Islam. I would add that the decentralized nature of Islam is a bug, not a feature, making Islam all the more dangerous: Islamists are unrestrained by any commonly recognized Islamic authority.

I believe that the majority of Muslims in the United States are peaceful and do not want conflict with their neighbors. But that's really beside the point. Wherever Islam exists, there will be a certain percentage of believers whose plausible interpretation of their holy texts - plausible because it is historically mainstream and has been the source of Islam's strength and energy through the centuries - render them violently hostile to anything non-Islamic. Lukewarm and liberal Muslims are always at risk of being converted to a more rigorous and consistent form of Islam.

Another issue is the question of whether Islam in any form is compatible with the Anglo-American political tradition. Christianity is not only compatible, as has been proved over many centuries, but is the historical foundation of our system of government. Islam, on the other hand, has never been able to so much as peacefully co-exist within a republican form of government except in the smallest, most inconsequential numbers. That is not to say that republican governments are better than all alternatives - I have a preference for constitutional monarchy myself - but the American political tradition is what it is.

The first article mentioned in the OP shows clearly how the mere presence of Muslims in concentrated numbers forces everyone to change and accommodate them. The objective result is that Christian influence is driven out of the public square to make way for the sensibilities of Islam. As a Christian and a Catholic, I don't appreciate this at all, to say the least.
I was Catholic for the first 20+ years of my life and never had any issues with Muslims. even when I was in Islamic countries. there are some very Beautiful Cathedrals in the Islamic Nations and still very active.

Later, after leaving Catholicism. I lived as a non-Catholic Christian evangelist and spent at least 10 years in the Islamic nations trying to convert them to Christianity. Never, had any problems and was always treated well, even in Iran.

I've seen peaceful coexistence between Muslims and Christians in every Islamic Nation I traveled through.

Never in my Christian years did I encounter what you speak of. It has been about 30 years since I called myself a Christian. After leaving Christianity I spent about 25 years as an Agnostic on the verge of being an atheist. It was 6 years ago Islam found me. At that point I was very anti-Islam and the day before I accepted Islam, I would have said I could never be a Muslim. I never in my life anticipated I would every accept Islam. But, Allaah(swt) gave me reason to believe even after 30 years without any contact with any Muslims.

Quote:
I think you're being a bit disingenuous here. Perhaps you don't like the word "dogma", but you obviously do believe that Islam has objective doctrinal content, else you wouldn't claim that "Muslims who actually follow the Qur'an are the most peaceful".
Islam is very much a religion of Self responsibility. We are not taught the Qur'an, we have to seek. Nobody soon feeds us the Qur'an. We have to learn to ask questions and verify the answers we get. we are obligated to find as many sources of knowledge as possible and always seek to learn more. We can not fall back on the excuse that somebody misled us. It is true there are 4 different madhabs in Sunni and we are to select one and follow it. but, even that is only a step in learning and growing in self responsibility.

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 01-15-2012 at 05:52 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2012, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,366,469 times
Reputation: 7408
Here is Sacred Heart Cathedral in Lahore Pakistan in April of 2009 at the Ordination of Fr Imran John, the first native of Lahore to be ordained a Jesuit.


Last edited by Woodrow LI; 01-15-2012 at 06:11 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2012, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,366,469 times
Reputation: 7408
Some food for thought. there are something like 25,000 Christian denominations. Nearly every one of them currently has missionaries in the Islamic nations with the express purpose of trying to convert Muslims. Check any denomination you like and you will find they have missionaries in Islamic nations. Do You see any massive blood bath of Christian Missionaries? There are thousands of them preaching publicly and remaining unHarmed.

Just one example, from a small Louisiana Church. HERE

It seems every Christian church has Missionaries in Islamic Nations. They are as common as sand fleas. All over the place.

If even a small percentage of what you wrote in the OP was true, the streets in the Islamic nations would be filled with dead missionaries.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2012, 06:12 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,255 posts, read 4,746,222 times
Reputation: 1527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I was Catholic for the first 20+ years of my life and never had any issues with Muslims. even when I was in Islamic countries.
I've never had any issues with Muslims either, personally. For several years I had three Muslim roommates in college. We had a great time, I attended their parties, and we spent many late nights talking about religion and politics. One of the brothers even let me take him to church. His devout mother gave me an olive-wood representation of the nativity at Christmastime. She used to get tears in her eyes when I played Christmas carols because it reminded her of the Catholic school she attended in Palestine.

Our friendly relationship changed dramatically when the Gulf War started. One of my roommates told me I would "burn in hell forever" if I didn't convert to Islam and, specifically, learn to read the Koran in Arabic. We had a few heated arguments. Expressions of vile anti-Semitism increased. I was told that "Hitler should have finished the job", among other hateful things. Their hatred for Jews was shocking to me. They said they didn't support terrorism, but they were always making excuses and blaming terrorism on the Jews. They never said anything against Christians in my presence.

Anyway, this is all beside the point. The history and the data are clear. Islam is a threat to the West in general and America in particular. Islam is "tolerant" of Christians only under two conditions: 1) When Muslims are a small minority and require the goodwill of Christians to survive; 2) Once Islam has conquered a Christian land and made dhimmis of the surviving Christians. Case in point: In Muslim nations with conquered Christian minorities, like Iraq, Catholic schools are actually required to teach Islam to Muslim students and are forbidden to evangelize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We are not taught the Qur'an, we have to seek. Nobody soon feeds us the Qur'an.
With all due respect, this is simply not a credible claim. Muslims are taught the Koran. They are taught to obey its precepts. Let's see ... here's a link the website of a nearby mosque teaching the Koran. There. Now enough with this "Islam is a religion of seeking and never finding" business.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2012, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,366,469 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post


With all due respect, this is simply not a credible claim. Muslims are taught the Koran. They are taught to obey its precepts. Let's see ... here's a link the website of a nearby mosque teaching the Koran. There. Now enough with this "Islam is a religion of seeking and never finding" business.
Nearby Mosque? Islam Q&A is used as a source of Information for many Muslims. I even use it as a link on my own website.

Nobody is obligated to go to the website and it is just one opinion. A source of answers, but which we all are to verify the answers to and not accept blindly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2012, 07:16 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,255 posts, read 4,746,222 times
Reputation: 1527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Nearby Mosque? Islam Q&A is used as a source of Information for many Muslims. I even use it as a link on my own website.
Yes, it was linked on the Chico Islamic Center website. This mosque obviously views the answers as authoritative. So do you, presumably, if you link to this page on your site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Nobody is obligated to go to the website and it is just one opinion. A source of answers, but which we all are to verify the answers to and not accept blindly.
Wait ... in your opinion, are these answers true or false? In your opinion, does it even matter whether the answers are true or false? Or, in your opinion, is Islam nothing more than a jumble of opinions?

Anyway, these guys obviously think Islam is more than just mere opinion:

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2012, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,366,469 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
Yes, it was linked on the Chico Islamic Center website. This mosque obviously views the answers as authoritative. So do you, presumably, if you link to this page on your site.



Wait ... in your opinion, are these answers true or false? In your opinion, does it even matter whether the answers are true or false? Or, in your opinion, is Islam nothing more than a jumble of opinions?
The Scholar of Islam Q&A is Sheikh Muhammad al-Munajid of Riyadh Saudi Arabia. He is a follower of the Hanbli Madhab and belongs to the Salafi School of thought. while his answers are considered accurate, it has to be noted his opinions are not shared by all Scholars and his tafsir are decidedly Salafi.

I use his work as just one opinion and also provide links to other scholars who differ.

Islam outside the 5 pillars of Faith is quite open to opinions. Our main concerns are over what is permitted and what is forbidden. We usually settle upon the consensus of the majority, provided we ourselves have reason to agree. If we have any doubt we tend to follow the path that it is forbidden, until proven different.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2012, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,366,469 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post

Anyway, these guys obviously think Islam is more than just mere opinion:

I mistranslated the Urdu. I am not clear as to what theyare protesting. I went to the youtube site and read the comments, noticed that some Muslims were against these protestors.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-15-2012, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Holiday, FL
1,577 posts, read 1,742,550 times
Reputation: 1156
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
This thread is for the purpose of initiating a discussion, or at least stimulating thought, on the topic of Islamism in the United States and what to do about it. I would like to highlight a three-part series at the blog What's Wrong With the World titled "Disinviting Islam".

The first article
establishes the radical incompatibility of Islam with American culture, customs, laws and institutions. It establishes the need to see Islam as not a religion only, but a socio-political movement that is antithetical to the foundations of American life and liberty.

The second article makes policy proposals aimed at arresting the influence of Islam in the United States. In addition, the article suggests some personal, non-political steps that ordinary people can take in order to resist the advances of Islamism in their own communities.

The third article discusses the compatibility of these anti-Islamist proposals with Christian charity, because it is often alleged that Christian values demand that Islam and its practitioners be welcomed with open arms and generously accommodated.

I hope at least a few City-Data readers will give these articles some careful thought. It's true that the abstract idea of deliberately making a religious group feel unwelcome runs directly counter to American ideals of religious liberty and cultural pluralism. But let's face it: Islam has pushed these ideals to the limit. We're going to have to re-think a few things. Much better to do this now, and peacefully, than tomorrow when the situation is out of control and peaceful solutions are unlikely.
Should be pretty simple, actually. Ask them, if Islam is so good and great, why are they here in the US instead of back in a country that is governed by Shariah Law?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top