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Old 04-08-2008, 11:35 AM
 
2,955 posts, read 6,759,608 times
Reputation: 1928

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HsvMike View Post
Or you were just turning around someone's words, to try and label them something they are not...
No, I never "turn around" the words of others in order to label them.
If I want to label somebody, I will use my own words.
I was asking a real question - and I'll attempt to explain the question because I think it is important.

The poster I originally responded to wrote:

"What I'm reading in the news all the time is that if your not Muslim, and your in a Muslim country, you really don't want to be in that country. You can be anything you want here in the US, we don't care. Could this be the problem?"

...and I asked for an explanation.
I asked because it looks to me like there is an implication in these sentences that if the US is accepting of Muslims while Islamic countries do not accept non-Muslims, then this "could be the problem."

So my question, in other words, is:
Would "the problem" be solved if we in the US take the same position as those in Muslim countries and decide that we should have some kind of national religion and exclude people outside of that religion from participating in this experiment that we call the United States?
If the answer is "yes", then the poster has exposed a xenophobic belief that Muslims should be made to feel unwelcome in the US - just as non-Muslims are not too welcome in "Muslim countries." This is dangerous and un-American in nature and if the poster believes that, then I want them to see the error in their thinking.

Perhaps I have misunderstood the post that I am referencing - that's possible. If so, then I want to be corrected. That is why I asked the question. But no, I did not "turn around" anyone's words. I only read and interpreted them.
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Old 04-08-2008, 11:16 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,921,667 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahmoud mrt View Post
This is a flaming post full of lies and stereotypes.

Moslims did Not Kill Christians in Middle East nor they burned churches, this is a full ignorant lie.

In fact most Christians of the middle east were happy to get rid of roman oppression, in Egypt as an example the catholic Romans were oppressing the orthodox Christian Egyptians.

It took about four hundred years for moslims to become 90% in Egypt, all by free will conversion, marriage, immigration etc,. You should look at the peace treaty of Moslims first entering Jerusalem, to see how moslims were very careful not to destroy any church, even when the priests invited the moslim Ruler then Omar ibn Alkataab to pray his prayer in the church, he kindly refused and prayed outside it so moslims would not afterwards make it a mosque.

Compare this to Crusades Killing more than 70 Thousand innocent civilian men, women and children in Jerusalem till blood reached their knees.

As for the other lies and false allegations in your post, forgive me they does not deserve to be replied upon, Islam Cleary forbids killing innocent civilians, and moslims throughout history abided by this law. Just cause about a hundred ignorant criminals decided to intentionally ignore Islam Rules and be criminal does not link to the other 1.5 billion moslims, this is ridiculous, they are just a bunch of criminals that will be completely hunted and brought to justice by God willing. Just compare the casualties of other religions extremists through history, (millions), just compare with the crime rate in the west. The civilians brutal casualties in every western army war in the last century even among western to western wars destroying civilian cities was a norm. (Millions civilians in WW2. From 3 to 5 million in Vietnam alone, God knows how many in Iraq today, Thousands Palestinians and Lebanese by Israeli troops, etc).
The Crusades started after 50% of Christians in the Middle East were killed off by Muslims, and 3,000 of their churches were burned to the ground. FREE will conversion, you mean the Christians who still had their heads converted FREELY? Is this the same kind of FREE will we see in Iran today? You know if a Muslim wants to be a Christian they want to put him to death.
Is that the kind of free will your talking about? What does the West have to do with the Christian faith, the West got rid of Jesus long ago. And God allowed the Jews to return to Israel so the Islamics will attack them. It's part of Gods bigger plan. You can read about it in Ezekiel chapters 36,37,38, and 39.
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Old 04-09-2008, 06:20 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,841,519 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Campbell34
Quote:
Is that the kind of free will your talking about? What does the West have to do with the Christian faith, the West got rid of Jesus long ago. And God allowed the Jews to return to Israel so the Islamics will attack them. It's part of Gods bigger plan. You can read about it in Ezekiel chapters 36,37,38, and 39.
The west has a lot to do with Christian faith, since they westernised Christianity which originally is a non-western religion. Once the Roman Empire usurped the early Christians and made it their state religion the emperor was suddenly called a pope and kings were supposedly 'chosen' by God.
But I guess this happens when you confuse the Bible as history.

Only after WWII did the (European) Christians acknowledge that they had Jewish roots. The y looked long and hard at themselves and had to acknowledge that the Christian faith was partly responsible the Nazis exterminating the Jews;
in the past whenever something disastrous had happened in Europe (like the plague etc) the Jews always were blamed by the Christians.
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Old 04-09-2008, 06:52 AM
 
471 posts, read 1,112,113 times
Reputation: 135
As long as the Radical Islam remains barbaric and incredibly dangerous to the rest of the world.. I'll take a few crazy christian nuts playing with rattle snakes any day.

Radical Islam is a threat to the entire world... not just the United States. Until people realize that, we're in a lot of trouble.
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Old 04-09-2008, 06:58 AM
 
471 posts, read 1,112,113 times
Reputation: 135
Instead of discussing and arguing the past, how about we discuss the present and the future. Present Radical Islam has publicly said that if you are not Muslim then you are the enemy. They have also made it clear that they will not stop killing until the world is entirely Muslim. Again, this is Radical Islam not mainstream Islam.

This is very dangerous. Especially since this is being taught in areas around the world with no formal education. The kids eats it up because it's all they know. The hardcore bible bouncers here play with snakes in the woods. All around them are big cities with high schools and college, so their crazy ideas remain marginal.

Christianity is not a threat to the survival of the human race. Radical Islam is.

As long as people in the middle east continue to live like barbarians in the middle ages, their radical form of Islam will thrive. And the longer the modern world ignores them the more dangerous they will become.
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Old 04-09-2008, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Egypt
125 posts, read 263,907 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The Crusades started after 50% of Christians in the Middle East were killed off by Muslims, and 3,000 of their churches were burned to the ground.


This is a LIE, you have no knowledge in middle east history at all, you just repeat the lies which made the crusades attacks from the beginning and proven to be fake even among the western historians.

The crusades were lied upon people by their leaders to control the east and make wealthy kingdoms, their crimes are even known to the west, have you seen the movie "kingdom of heaven", just an example.


Quote:
"FREE will conversion, you mean the Christians who still had their heads converted FREELY? Is this the same kind of FREE will we see in Iran today? You know if a Muslim wants to be a Christian they want to put him to death.

This proves also that you have no knowledge of the Islamic law, even in Iran no non moslims can ever be compelled to be moslims, it's just a contradiction to a direct command in the holy Quran.

"There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in God hath grasped a firm hand hold which will never break. God is Hearer, Knower."
Holy Qur'aan Surah 2. Al-Baqara, verse no. 256.


"And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers?."
Holy Qur'aan Surah 10. Yunus, verse no. 99.



The difference in opinions is in the adult moslim changing his religion, this is the only point where the difference in opinions happen, and Iran as it seems they choose the opinion that states death penalty after three days conversation with moslims scholars, and if the person insists, then they apply the punishment, of course the person can immigrate to a western country and change his religion there.

In Egypt we take the other opinion, any one can change his religion, he also has some days of discussion with the scholars of his religion whether moslim or christian.

I'll make a separate thread on this subject to clarify by God willing.


Quote:
What does the West have to do with the Christian faith, the West got rid of Jesus long ago.
Lots of the westerns are christians, even only by name, they identify themselves as christians, as there are lot of practicing christians as well, there're lots of atheists ,yes, but still who identify themselves as christians are millions.

Well, you seem to categorize any non practicing christian as non christian.

Quote:
And God allowed the Jews to return to Israel so the Islamics will attack them. It's part of Gods bigger plan. You can read about it in Ezekiel chapters 36,37,38, and 39.


This is what you believe, it's your choice.

But if you want you can search about the authenticity of this and does it really relate to jesus's (peace be upon him) words, the bibles were written hundred of years after jesus's death, there were many, then they choose four of them, interests and influences throughout centuries altered and faked lot of its content, and put a lot of pagan beliefs in it to suit the kings of the age.

Compare this with the authenticity and miracles of the holy Quran. The fact the holy Quran was written and memorized since the prophet (peace be upon him) life by Hundreds of thousands and though by millions throughout history, every moslim from the millions is a checker on each letter, every single letter is preserved.

The fact that It's the only religion that clearly frees God from all pagan fakes inserted in most religions now, including christianity (no offence).

It's the only religion now the summons people to worship God the one the only one, who is the creator of all things, has No son or wife, nothing is similar to him, can't be seen by our week eyes, but his presence is felt in every pure human heart, in the fabulous universe, in the smile of a child, in every thing.

I know that there are Unitarian christians who believe in God the one the only one, just to point it out, but sadly they are not the majority.

As for the miracles, there are the scientific miracles in the holy Quran, scientific facts in the holy Quran that has not been discovered till the twentieth century, told in the holy Quran 14 centuries ago, look in this sites for references,

Dr. Zaghloul El-Naggar

Commission on Scientific Signs

I intend to make a full thread on this by God Willing.

There's also the psychological miracle, but this can only be felt when hearing the holy Quran from a good reciter, or reciting after training.
There are also historical miracles,
Like the It's telling of the successful war of Romans against Persians just after the Persians had won and became stronger, 7 years before the war.
There is the law making miracles, like the summarizing of the whole inheritance laws in just one page, in a perfect mode, while it takes thousands of pages in any other law. The telling of the great city of Iram that was discovered very recently on southern Saudi Arabia. And the telling of the true historical events of the prophets (peace be upon them).

There are many miracles, which need lots of threads.


It's your choice to choose, but for your sake you can look and search, seek the truth in your heart. And compare, but first you should remove blind hatred from your heart, this will be a good start, after this you have your choice.

Last edited by mahmoud mrt; 04-09-2008 at 07:43 AM..
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Old 04-09-2008, 07:06 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,841,519 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by jrod2828
Quote:
Instead of discussing and arguing the past, how about we discuss the present and the future.
Simply because discussing the present and the future is worthless if you do not acknowledge the past.
It all starts with the past; if you do not understand the past, you will not understand the present.
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Old 04-09-2008, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Huntsville, AL
2,221 posts, read 2,664,972 times
Reputation: 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by b. frank View Post
No, I never "turn around" the words of others in order to label them.
If I want to label somebody, I will use my own words.
I was asking a real question - and I'll attempt to explain the question because I think it is important.

The poster I originally responded to wrote:

"What I'm reading in the news all the time is that if your not Muslim, and your in a Muslim country, you really don't want to be in that country. You can be anything you want here in the US, we don't care. Could this be the problem?"

...and I asked for an explanation.
I asked because it looks to me like there is an implication in these sentences that if the US is accepting of Muslims while Islamic countries do not accept non-Muslims, then this "could be the problem."

So my question, in other words, is:
Would "the problem" be solved if we in the US take the same position as those in Muslim countries and decide that we should have some kind of national religion and exclude people outside of that religion from participating in this experiment that we call the United States?
If the answer is "yes", then the poster has exposed a xenophobic belief that Muslims should be made to feel unwelcome in the US - just as non-Muslims are not too welcome in "Muslim countries." This is dangerous and un-American in nature and if the poster believes that, then I want them to see the error in their thinking.

Perhaps I have misunderstood the post that I am referencing - that's possible. If so, then I want to be corrected. That is why I asked the question. But no, I did not "turn around" anyone's words. I only read and interpreted them.
OK I understand, yes I do think your "in other words question" would have been a little more tactful. But then again, I have definitely been known to lose my tact just once or twice. I guess I just took the post to mean something different than you did.
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Old 04-09-2008, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Egypt
125 posts, read 263,907 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrod2828 View Post
As long as the Radical Islam remains barbaric and incredibly dangerous to the rest of the world.. I'll take a few crazy christian nuts playing with rattle snakes any day.

Radical Islam is a threat to the entire world... not just the United States. Until people realize that, we're in a lot of trouble.
You should read the posts by mojoman in the politicsforumpoliticalworld, He is a British non moslim, see the logic, I agree with most of his political points cause he is knowledgeable about the middle east political state.

Does 'Fitna' show real face of Islam? (Film by Dutch politician Geert Wilders) - Political Forum - US & World Political Discussion Forums (http://www.politicsforumpoliticalworld.com/religion-philosophy-political-philosophy/12204-does-fitna-show-real-face-islam-film-dutch-politician-geert-wilders.html - broken link)

I'll summarize some points later by God willing, but you can read the whole discussion.


Also the posts by bbk1 who is a Saudi Moslim.

Note that the israeli guy who began the conversation was temporarily banned after refuted and began personally attacking. just a hint. (no offence).

Note: If the link appears long to you Just copy from http to .html and past it in another Internet Explorer Window, there's a problem with links here in city data, i'll ask the moderators about it by God willing.

Last edited by mahmoud mrt; 04-09-2008 at 08:38 AM..
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Old 04-09-2008, 08:17 AM
 
471 posts, read 1,112,113 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahmoud mrt View Post
You should read the posts by mojoman in the politicsforumpoliticalworld, He is a British non moslim, see the logic, I agree with most of his political points cause he is knowledgeable about the middle east political state.

Does 'Fitna' show real face of Islam? (Film by Dutch politician Geert Wilders) - Political Forum - US & World Political Discussion Forums (http://www.politicsforumpoliticalworld.com/religion-philosophy-political-philosophy/12204-does-fitna-show-real-face-islam-film-dutch-politician-geert-wilders.html - broken link)

I'll summarize some points later, but you can read the whole discussion.


Also he posts by bbk1 who is a Saudi Moslim.

Note that the israeli guy who began the conversation was temporarily banned after refuted and began personally attacking. just a hint. (no offence).
If you are implying I'm personally attacking anyone.. I'm not. There are a few bible bouncers out there who think they can play with snakes and be protected from their venom by God. Enough of these people have died from snake bites that we can call them crazy just by using common sense.. nothing malicious.

Radical Islam, those who live in caves and treat women like dogs and publicly state that anyone not Muslim is the enemy, are living in a barbaric society. Again, nothing malicious, that is common sense to anyone with 2 or more brain cells.

Again, I'll take the crazy fringe christians who play with snakes and preach love and acceptance over radical islamists who preach hatred and death.
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