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Old 04-09-2008, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 6,079,925 times
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"The difference in opinions is in the adult moslim changing his religion, this is the only point where the difference in opinions happen, and Iran as it seems they choose the opinion that states death penalty after three days conversation with moslims scholars, and if the person insists, then they apply the punishment, of course the person can immigrate to a western country and change his religion there.

In Egypt we take the other opinion, any one can change his religion, he also has some days of discussion with the scholars of his religion whether moslim or christian.

I'll make a separate thread on this subject to clarify by God willing."



Is there an agreed upon Islamic dogma regarding this? Or is this area left up to the different sects?

One of my best friends is Muslim, and this makes me very nervous. I'll have to ask him next time I see him.

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Old 04-09-2008, 08:27 AM
 
471 posts, read 1,108,328 times
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I think bottom line.. we have to stop promoting religions that promote death. No one on this planet has died and seen heaven or hell and then returned. Some people have claimed it but in reality, no one truly knows anything. So why kill each other over something none of us truly understands? I understand the past was violent and almost all religions have dabbled in murder and terrible things over the years. But the fact is, the past is the past. It's time to start taking our kids to soccer practice and stop preaching violence in the name of religion.

We all have a few things in common. We all want to know who god is, we all want to love whomever or whatever created us, we all want to do the right thing, we all want happiness, we all want freedom and we all want our children to enjoy those same things.

The devil is in the details. Western society has realized that believing the bible and living by the bible word for word does not produce a modern safe society. We can't go around taking an eye for an eye in modern society. The problem is Radical Islam hasn't caught up. They take their word so literally that it is truly dangerous to the existence of man-kind if one of these groups got control of nuclear weapons.

We all need to understand our differences and live in peace. Much much easier said than done but I think it starts with education. As long as children in the middle east do not receive formal education and only receive an education from a religion textbook this threat will not go away.
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Old 04-09-2008, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Egypt
125 posts, read 263,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
"The difference in opinions is in the adult moslim changing his religion, this is the only point where the difference in opinions happen, and Iran as it seems they choose the opinion that states death penalty after three days conversation with moslims scholars, and if the person insists, then they apply the punishment, of course the person can immigrate to a western country and change his religion there.

In Egypt we take the other opinion, any one can change his religion, he also has some days of discussion with the scholars of his religion whether moslim or christian.

I'll make a separate thread on this subject to clarify by God willing."


Is there an agreed upon Islamic dogma regarding this? Or is this area left up to the different sects?

One of my best friends is Muslim, and this makes me very nervous. I'll have to ask him next time I see him.

I should point out that in Egypt this is the opinion practically chosen by the government, so some few Moslims do revert to Christianity mainly due to economical promises from Christians, they live normally, some Christians revert to Islam for true reasons, some for other like getting divorced cause the Egyptian church does not allow divorce, then they revert back to Christianity, but there are legal complications regarding paper work and personal ID in the legal system, also some incidents of legal law allegations against one moslim who clearly got out of Islam in his writings (like denying the prophecy of prophet Mohamed (pbuh), etc. But the allegation only seek divorcing him from his wife, preventing him form coming back to Egypt,etc, but it had to be alleged to the court from some persons here, it was a very controversial topic about 8 years ago.

So there is no death or prison penalty for changing religion in Egypt, this has a strong Islamic opinion by some very respected scholars including the Mufti of Egypt dr. Ali Gomaa, But still this is a very controversial topic here among scholars, most of them tend to choose the more conservative opinion.
That states death penalty after three days conversation with moslims scholars, and if the person insists, then they apply the punishment,

This is probably cause they are fearing the church using its money to convert moslims. I'll illustrate the proofs of each opinion in a separate thread by God willing.

I myself choose the opinion of no punishment, but I respect the other opinion, from the concept of respecting different scholars opinions in Islamic law regarding non fundamentals.

We must be aware that this opinion depends on the known fact the no one can be forced ever to join Islam, so it's telling anyone to think twice before joining, he must be 100% sure cause it's a one way choice, cause we want only strong believers. So you are free not to join, but to join you must be 100% determined. And if you want to commit apostasy afterwards you have three days to discuss and return back to Islam or the punishment, Or you can first immigrate to another non moslim country, but not allowed to return to the moslim country afterwards. Also note that this is only for adult moslims, children of course are not punished at all.

Last edited by mahmoud mrt; 04-09-2008 at 12:11 PM..
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Old 04-09-2008, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 6,079,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahmoud mrt View Post
I should point out that in Egypt this is the opinion practically chosen by the government, so some few Moslims do revert to Christianity mainly due to economical promises from Christians, they live normally, some Christians revert to Islam for true reasons, some for other like getting divorced cause the Egyptian church does not allow divorce, then they revert back to Christianity, but there are legal complications regarding paper work and personal ID in the legal system, also some incidents of legal law allegations against one moslim who clearly got out of Islam in his writings (like denying the prophecy of prophet Mohamed (pbuh), etc. But the allegation only seek divorcing him from his wife, preventing him form coming back to Egypt,etc, but it had to be alleged to the court from some persons here, it was a very controversial topic about 8 years ago.

So there is no death or prison penalty for changing religion in Egypt, this has a strong Islamic opinion by some very respected scholars including the Mufti of Egypt dr. Ali Gomaa, But still this is a very controversial topic here among scholars, most of them tend to choose the more conservative opinion.
That states death penalty after three days conversation with moslims scholars, and if the person insists, then they apply the punishment,

This is probably cause they are fearing the church using its money to convert moslims. I'll illustrate the proofs of each opinion in a separate thread by God willing.

I myself choose the opinion of no punishment, but I respect the other opinion, from the concept of respecting different scholars opinions in Islamic law regarding non fundamentals.

We must be aware that this opinion depends on the known fact the no one can be forced ever to join Islam, so it's telling anyone to think twice before joining, he must be 100% sure cause it's a one way choice, cause we want only strong believers. So you are free not to join, but to join you must be 100% determined. And if you want to commit apostasy afterwards you have three days to discuss and return back to Islam or the punishment, Or you can first immigrate to another non moslim country, but not allowed to return to the moslim country afterwards. Also note that this is only for adult moslims, children of course are not punished at all.
What is the requirnement to "join Islam" ?
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Old 04-10-2008, 12:48 PM
 
Location: ny
326 posts, read 967,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDBreaux View Post
I don't mean that literally, but what will happen when Islam is a majority religion, and Christianity is only second in command? The more progessive Christians become the more dominant Muslims seem to be. I would have no concern about a growing Muslim religion in the world if they respected American law and came to live American lives. Instead, many, but not all, are brining with them the traditions from their home countries. With that also comes a firm belief that Islam should be the law of the land, a place where other religions are not respected and kept separate.

Is it right to fear the spread of Islam in America? I believe we need to stand strong and firm in our belief that America, regardless the faults, is a nation of secular law, where no one religion can be the supreme law of the land.
NO, YOU ARE WRONG. JESUS HAS BEEN APPEARING TO MUSLIMS AND THEY ARE CONVERTING TO CHRISTIAN!!!! Check these links if you don't believe.

Visions of Jesus Stir Muslim Hearts

Jesus Is Coming Soon! - The Last Adam (http://www.jesusiscomingsoon.org/ChristMuslims.php - broken link)
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Old 04-10-2008, 01:22 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,285,866 times
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Mahmoud Mrt, may I ask you a question?
What does the Muslim religion say about killing non believers? I'm referring to a case in the UK of an Imam who had said that it was alright for Muslims to kill and rape non believers. As you can imagine, that type of sentiment makes westerners uneasy
As a Muslim, could you explain this to me?
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Old 04-12-2008, 04:21 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,801,920 times
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Originally Posted by camping!
Quote:
What does the Muslim religion say about killing non believers?
The same as the Christian.
And yet they keep on killing in the name of $$$$ (read: power).
I dunno what is worse, being killed for being a non believer or being 'married' to a 50 year old pervert (read: raped), because 16 year old girls are indoctrinated by their 'Christian' religion to be submissive to men.

It seems that freedom of religion only begs the wolves to come out and play in their ‘best’ sheep costume.
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Old 04-12-2008, 05:28 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Mahmoud Mrt, may I ask you a question?
What does the Muslim religion say about killing non believers? I'm referring to a case in the UK of an Imam who had said that it was alright for Muslims to kill and rape non believers. As you can imagine, that type of sentiment makes westerners uneasy
As a Muslim, could you explain this to me?
This is one misunderstanding that keeps rising up against Islam. Islam does not in anyway allow for the killing of any innocent soul even if in the wars

so i will answer all your question from quran and sunnah(teaches of our prophet)

islam relegion is very clear with the situation of non_muslims
[quran 60 /8:9]
8-Allah does not forbid you(muslims) to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.

9-It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zalimoon (wrong-doers those who disobey Allah).


[LEFT]"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......(The Noble Quran, 18:29)"[/LEFT]

[LEFT]"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)"[/LEFT]

</B></U></I>
</SPAN>
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Old 04-12-2008, 07:36 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,887,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahmoud mrt View Post

This is a LIE, you have no knowledge in middle east history at all, you just repeat the lies which made the crusades attacks from the beginning and proven to be fake even among the western historians.

The crusades were lied upon people by their leaders to control the east and make wealthy kingdoms, their crimes are even known to the west, have you seen the movie "kingdom of heaven", just an example.



This proves also that you have no knowledge of the Islamic law, even in Iran no non moslims can ever be compelled to be moslims, it's just a contradiction to a direct command in the holy Quran.

"There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in God hath grasped a firm hand hold which will never break. God is Hearer, Knower."
Holy Qur'aan Surah 2. Al-Baqara, verse no. 256.


"And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers?."
Holy Qur'aan Surah 10. Yunus, verse no. 99.



The difference in opinions is in the adult moslim changing his religion, this is the only point where the difference in opinions happen, and Iran as it seems they choose the opinion that states death penalty after three days conversation with moslims scholars, and if the person insists, then they apply the punishment, of course the person can immigrate to a western country and change his religion there.

In Egypt we take the other opinion, any one can change his religion, he also has some days of discussion with the scholars of his religion whether moslim or christian.

I'll make a separate thread on this subject to clarify by God willing.




Lots of the westerns are christians, even only by name, they identify themselves as christians, as there are lot of practicing christians as well, there're lots of atheists ,yes, but still who identify themselves as christians are millions.

Well, you seem to categorize any non practicing christian as non christian.



This is what you believe, it's your choice.

But if you want you can search about the authenticity of this and does it really relate to jesus's (peace be upon him) words, the bibles were written hundred of years after jesus's death, there were many, then they choose four of them, interests and influences throughout centuries altered and faked lot of its content, and put a lot of pagan beliefs in it to suit the kings of the age.

Compare this with the authenticity and miracles of the holy Quran. The fact the holy Quran was written and memorized since the prophet (peace be upon him) life by Hundreds of thousands and though by millions throughout history, every moslim from the millions is a checker on each letter, every single letter is preserved.

The fact that It's the only religion that clearly frees God from all pagan fakes inserted in most religions now, including christianity (no offence).

It's the only religion now the summons people to worship God the one the only one, who is the creator of all things, has No son or wife, nothing is similar to him, can't be seen by our week eyes, but his presence is felt in every pure human heart, in the fabulous universe, in the smile of a child, in every thing.

I know that there are Unitarian christians who believe in God the one the only one, just to point it out, but sadly they are not the majority.

As for the miracles, there are the scientific miracles in the holy Quran, scientific facts in the holy Quran that has not been discovered till the twentieth century, told in the holy Quran 14 centuries ago, look in this sites for references,

Dr. Zaghloul El-Naggar

Commission on Scientific Signs

I intend to make a full thread on this by God Willing.

There's also the psychological miracle, but this can only be felt when hearing the holy Quran from a good reciter, or reciting after training.
There are also historical miracles,
Like the It's telling of the successful war of Romans against Persians just after the Persians had won and became stronger, 7 years before the war.
There is the law making miracles, like the summarizing of the whole inheritance laws in just one page, in a perfect mode, while it takes thousands of pages in any other law. The telling of the great city of Iram that was discovered very recently on southern Saudi Arabia. And the telling of the true historical events of the prophets (peace be upon them).

There are many miracles, which need lots of threads.


It's your choice to choose, but for your sake you can look and search, seek the truth in your heart. And compare, but first you should remove blind hatred from your heart, this will be a good start, after this you have your choice.
Sounds like you have spent to much time in one of those Islamic schools yourself. The Crusades historically were a reaction to Muslims spreading the faith by the sword. Why are muslims burning down Christian churches today? Why is Iran trying to pass laws that would put Muslims to death for converting to the Christian faith? Why are Muslims calling for the death for authors who do not agree with them? We don't have to argue about the Crusades, look for yourself what Muslims are doing to non Muslims around the world today. Are you blind. I have Christian friends over seas, and they are in constant fear of what Muslims will do because the Muslims over there like to riot and burn down churches. You don't see Christian burning down your places of worship, but we sure see your people doing it to ours. It Does not seem like your religion of peace is living up to it's name. And nothing has changed, where ever we see a strong Islamic movement, we see violence. You can see this in Africa, Europe, Asia, ect. The Quran may say one thing, but the reality is radical Islam is growing and is not going away. And it appears radical Muslims can point to the Quran to justify their evil. While the Christians around the world rush relief supplies to aid the down and outs, while the Christians speak of peace, and bring medical supplies to the needy, radical muslims kill and destroy in the name of Allah. And please, the movie, "The Kingdom of Heaven" was not a historical commetary. It was a Hollywood movie, with a total lack of facts and accuracy, and that's just what you would expect coming out Hollywood.
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Old 04-12-2008, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
738 posts, read 643,703 times
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When I read all of this it reaffirms my belief that we'd all be a lot better off without religion. It all becomes a huge pissing contest as to who is right, who is wrong and who's version of god can beat up the other guy's version of god.
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