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Old 03-22-2008, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,282,541 times
Reputation: 4279

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I think I'm just going to start replying with books since people love to read, right?

Inside the Kingdom: My Life in Saudi Arabia by Carmen bin Laden (I call this book "Growing up Bin Laden" )

Ok, seriously, it'd be good to read something different for a change, right? Besides, if you don't like what she wrote, you can turn to the cover and look at her pretty face.

How about this one??


Who Speaks For Islam?: What a Billion Muslims Really Think by John Esposito

Sincerely, the only way I feel there is ever going to be some sort of reconciliation is by a better understanding of one another. I think that even the most anti-Muslim Christian should read these two books. What are you afraid of, being converted????
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Old 03-22-2008, 11:03 PM
 
44 posts, read 69,294 times
Reputation: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Well reguardless of what you think of my debating skills, I would like to introduce you to the 21st century, and the reality of what is going on in the world. The links below will explain to you what Muslims are doing, and all of this is in the name of your God. My civility pales in comparson.

OpinionBug.com Ľ Muslims Murder Christian Kids In Pakistan
Ambon, Indonesia: January, 2000
MUSLIMS RIOT FOR EXECUTION OF WRITER TASLIMA NASRIN (http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/nasrin1.htm - broken link)
Compass Direct News...
CNN.com - Muslim row filmmaker*'murdered' - Nov 2, 2004 (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/11/02/netherlands.filmmaker/ - broken link)
The Moslem Riots: Why we owe them nothing
Bridges for Peace - Christians Fleeing BethlehemīS Moslem Majority (http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2531 - broken link)
Fundamentalist Moslem violence in Britain (http://www.atheists.org/Islam/violenceinbritain.html - broken link)
Westcoaster.ca - Columnists - Demark Moslem Youth Riots Ignored While Paris Is Burning
- Christian Newswire...

It should be obvious all over the earth where ever there are Moslems we seem to have these problems. We don't see Christians or Jews strapping bombs on themselves. We don't see religions of other faiths demanding death for non believers as we do in the moslem faith. Even with my frustration with your inability to see what many of your faithful are doing to other Christians, or even to other non believers, I still don't call for violence.

CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY YOUR RELIGION OF PEACE, APPEARS TO FOSTER SO MUCH VIOLENCE AROUND THE WORLD?
Well actually Iím not Muslim, and I don't know why you would assume so. I guess to you, since Iím not bashing Islam, I must be one.

The fact is, when it comes to violence, no one can live up to the Christian faith. If you know anything about history, the savagery committed by adherents of the Christian faith can never be matched by anyone else on god's earth. this in many ways have not changed, but now instead of the church doing the out right killing, that privilege is outsourced to the state, which although supposedly secular, one cannot help but notice the Christian influence within.

So it is you who needs to ask yourself why your religion appears to foster so much violence around the world. how does your religion justify the mass killing of millions of civilians, after all, most of the countries involved in WWI and WWII were Christians, Hitler was a Christian, as far as I recall, Truman who issued the order of dropping two nuclear bombs on Japanese cities obliterating 200,000 people is seconds was also Christian. Do I really need to go into Vietnam, Cambodia, Afghanistan, and Iraq...etc, all crimes committed by your fellow Christians.

The truth that hurts my dear, is that when it comes to violence, although Islamís history is not clean from blood either, anything committed by its adherentís pales when compared to the adherents of your faith.

I could post many links, including opinion pages as you did, but I will save you and myself the time. Just Google Christian violence, Iím sure you will enjoy reading.

P.S (in regards to the link about Bethlehem), it is funny when you link to a page that says Muslims took priests and nuns as hostages, and looted the church. If you know anything about world affairs, which it seems you donít, Palestinians are Moslems and Christians. They both face Israeli war crimes, so when a bunch of Muslims running away from the Israeli killing machine sought refuge in the church (the closest place they thought would be safe), they were welcomed by their fellow Palestinians. And for over a month, the church was bombed, defiled by Israelis, but somehow that escapes you, and the issue becomes about Muslims. It is worth noting, that the priests and nuns refused to leave the church alone, unless international promises were made to let the Palestinian Muslims in church leave without Israeli attempts to kill them.
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Old 03-23-2008, 06:53 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,894,757 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by illinoisjustice View Post
Well actually Iím not Muslim, and I don't know why you would assume so. I guess to you, since Iím not bashing Islam, I must be one.

The fact is, when it comes to violence, no one can live up to the Christian faith. If you know anything about history, the savagery committed by adherents of the Christian faith can never be matched by anyone else on god's earth. this in many ways have not changed, but now instead of the church doing the out right killing, that privilege is outsourced to the state, which although supposedly secular, one cannot help but notice the Christian influence within.

So it is you who needs to ask yourself why your religion appears to foster so much violence around the world. how does your religion justify the mass killing of millions of civilians, after all, most of the countries involved in WWI and WWII were Christians, Hitler was a Christian, as far as I recall, Truman who issued the order of dropping two nuclear bombs on Japanese cities obliterating 200,000 people is seconds was also Christian. Do I really need to go into Vietnam, Cambodia, Afghanistan, and Iraq...etc, all crimes committed by your fellow Christians.

The truth that hurts my dear, is that when it comes to violence, although Islamís history is not clean from blood either, anything committed by its adherentís pales when compared to the adherents of your faith.

I could post many links, including opinion pages as you did, but I will save you and myself the time. Just Google Christian violence, Iím sure you will enjoy reading.

P.S (in regards to the link about Bethlehem), it is funny when you link to a page that says Muslims took priests and nuns as hostages, and looted the church. If you know anything about world affairs, which it seems you donít, Palestinians are Moslems and Christians. They both face Israeli war crimes, so when a bunch of Muslims running away from the Israeli killing machine sought refuge in the church (the closest place they thought would be safe), they were welcomed by their fellow Palestinians. And for over a month, the church was bombed, defiled by Israelis, but somehow that escapes you, and the issue becomes about Muslims. It is worth noting, that the priests and nuns refused to leave the church alone, unless international promises were made to let the Palestinian Muslims in church leave without Israeli attempts to kill them.
Hitler was a Christian? PLEASE, give me a break. Jesus Christ tells us no murder will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Hitler was one of the great murderers of all time. Don't come here with such a statement as he was a Christian.
Israel is a nation of 6 million people surrounded by a billion Moslems who want to destroy them. None of the nations wanted Jews after world II, and few nations would even take them in during Hitlers killing camps were in full operation. And many nations sent them back to Europe knowing they would face certain death back in Europe. Britian was just one of those nations. Most of the Palestinians that are Christians are not the one's shooting rockets into Israel, it is the Moslems that are doing this.

And I don't know of any Christian who in their right mind would want to see Palestinan control of Israel. Christians suffered greatly under Moslems, and only when the Jews came in were Christians given any rights at all. Christians under Moslem ruel are always second class citizens. And it's only going to get worse.

From Compass Direc News
February 8, 2008

IRAN: DEATH PENALTY PROPOSED FOR 'APOSTATES'

The Iranian parliament may mandate the death penalty for citizens who leave Islam, a human rights group announced this week.

There is no free expression under Islam, it is either you do or you die. For get about freedom, forget about rights. It should be obvious what the Jews would face if Moslems were in charge. And this is the kind of mentality you want to control Israel?
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:44 PM
 
25,740 posts, read 25,408,469 times
Reputation: 24351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Jesus Christ tells us no murder will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Where did Jesus say this?

Because if he did say this, then that is in direct opposition to the principle that every person is a sinner and that one gets into heaven by accepting Jesus who washes away sins and all that.
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:45 PM
 
25,740 posts, read 25,408,469 times
Reputation: 24351
Also, if Jesus said that no murderer would get into heaven, wouldn't Paul, who murdered many before being blinded on the road to Damascus, have gone to hell?
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Old 03-23-2008, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
712 posts, read 1,816,952 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Where did Jesus say this?

Because if he did say this, then that is in direct opposition to the principle that every person is a sinner and that one gets into heaven by accepting Jesus who washes away sins and all that.
You forgot that Jesus said, "Many people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him" Or When Jesus said few find salvation.
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Old 03-23-2008, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
712 posts, read 1,816,952 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Also, if Jesus said that no murderer would get into heaven, wouldn't Paul, who murdered many before being blinded on the road to Damascus, have gone to hell?

Murderers without Jesus = Hell

Murderers with Jesus = Heaven


The BIG question is: "How does one be with Jesus?"

That is where the problems start...



What Most People Think

There may be as many opinions on who gets to go to heaven as there are people. Here are a few of the most popular ones:
Everyone becomes an angel and goes to heaven when they die.
Whoever obeys the Ten Commandments will go to heaven.
Whoever goes to church will go to heaven.
Whoever does more good things than bad things will go to heaven.
Whoever believes in God will go to heaven.
Whoever has not killed anyone or done anything really bad will go
to heaven.
Everyone in a Christian household will go to heaven.


...ALL WRONG
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Old 03-23-2008, 11:10 PM
 
25,740 posts, read 25,408,469 times
Reputation: 24351
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouperStar34 View Post
Murderers without Jesus = Hell

Murderers with Jesus = Heaven


The BIG question is: "How does one be with Jesus?"

That is where the problems start...



What Most People Think

There may be as many opinions on who gets to go to heaven as there are people. Here are a few of the most popular ones:
Everyone becomes an angel and goes to heaven when they die.
Whoever obeys the Ten Commandments will go to heaven.
Whoever goes to church will go to heaven.
Whoever does more good things than bad things will go to heaven.
Whoever believes in God will go to heaven.
Whoever has not killed anyone or done anything really bad will go
to heaven.
Everyone in a Christian household will go to heaven.


...ALL WRONG
Exactly. These are "all wrong" because (as I understand things) you need to "accept Jesus into your life" in order to get to Heaven, and that's not listed here.

Was that copied and pasted from somewhere? (I hope not that Kirk Cameron site.) Anyway, there are new rules here that you can't copy and paste without linking to the site, so watch out.

That said...this all brings me back to my original question. Why *wouldn't* Hitler go to heaven (in the Christian belief), considering that he may well have "asked Jesus to come into his life" before his death? Perhaps long before? How do you know what Hitler prayed about?

I'm not standing up for Hitler...believe me. I'm saying that if he did accept Jesus, etc. and was a Christian, then in Christian belief, he DID go to heaven.

And as far as the Jesus quote, that still doesn't say "no murderer will enter the kingdom of Heaven" as stated by Campbell...which was my original point. Where does it say this?
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Old 03-24-2008, 01:42 AM
 
44 posts, read 69,294 times
Reputation: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Hitler was a Christian? PLEASE, give me a break. Jesus Christ tells us no murder will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Hitler was one of the great murderers of all time. Don't come here with such a statement as he was a Christian.
Israel is a nation of 6 million people surrounded by a billion Moslems who want to destroy them. None of the nations wanted Jews after world II, and few nations would even take them in during Hitlers killing camps were in full operation. And many nations sent them back to Europe knowing they would face certain death back in Europe. Britian was just one of those nations. Most of the Palestinians that are Christians are not the one's shooting rockets into Israel, it is the Moslems that are doing this.

And I don't know of any Christian who in their right mind would want to see Palestinan control of Israel. Christians suffered greatly under Moslems, and only when the Jews came in were Christians given any rights at all. Christians under Moslem ruel are always second class citizens. And it's only going to get worse.

From Compass Direc News
February 8, 2008

IRAN: DEATH PENALTY PROPOSED FOR 'APOSTATES'

The Iranian parliament may mandate the death penalty for citizens who leave Islam, a human rights group announced this week.

There is no free expression under Islam, it is either you do or you die. For get about freedom, forget about rights. It should be obvious what the Jews would face if Moslems were in charge. And this is the kind of mentality you want to control Israel?
See, here is another example of you making so many wrong statements, with no backing. In as little as two paragraphs you managed to spread so much misinformation and lies. Below is just a sample,

1- Whether you agree or not, Hitler did call himself a Christian. Now for any sane person, or any person without an agenda, it is clear that the actions of one individual should not judge a whole religion. Just because Hitler and his circle were Christians, and committed atrocious acts, does not mean Christianity is a religion of murderers. Most people can make that distinction, but only people like you with an agenda, and hatred for a whole group of people, fails to see that separation when it comes to Muslims.

2- Your lack of knowledge on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is not a surprise, what is though, your talk about the issue pretending to be an expert. The facts are and remain, that Muslims had nothing to do with the persecution of Jews in Europe; on the contrary, Jews were living among Arabs in the Middle East for a long time in peace. Zionists in coordination with Britain and the Nazis (believe it or not) managed to convince these powers to open the door for immigration of Jews to Palestine, whose only fault was their weakness. The fact that you don't see anything wrong with people coming over and taking another people's lands, and in the process killing and expelling the indigenous people out, says a lot about you. Imagine China attacking Columbia and kicking its people out, and then claim that they are hated by the Catholics in Latin America for just being Chinese.

3- So you don't know of any Christians who in their right mind would see Palestine control Israel. Well first of all Palestine does not want to control Israel, in fact they cannot, due to a little thing called power. But anyway, playing along, it seems you don't know much Christians outside your evangelical Armageddon lovers’ type of thing Christians. You obviously have not met any Christian who lives in Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Lebanon, Egypt, and Greece and so on. Not to mention most Christians who would actually come to the aid of the oppressed. Only those who see Israel, the recently created state on the blood of other humans, as god's miracle due to their sick and twisted interpretation of the bible are capable of justifying such absurdity. Something that seems only fundamental evangelical Christians are capable of.

4-
Quote:
Christians suffered greatly under Moslems, and only when the Jews came in were Christians given any rights at all. Christians under Moslem rule are always second class citizens. And it's only going to get worse.


Absurd I tell you, absurd. Try telling this to a Palestinian Christian who lost his land, or to a Palestinian Christian who lost a brother or a son due to the kindness of the Israelis. I'm sure you know that all Christians in the holy lands call themselves Palestinians, obviously you have not met any of them, and otherwise you would not be making such a ridiculous statement.

Finally, your lack of knowledge about history is very clear. Maybe throughout history, minorities in the Muslim world were treated as second class citizens by today’s standards, but when compared to other civilizations, including western, they had it good. Some would argue the harmony that people enjoyed in Andalusia were Muslims ruled can be an example to us even in the 21st Century.

This is my final reply to you, since I don't think this is going anywhere. I ask you to stop your hate, and labeling of a whole religion due to the acts of a few. Sure you would not like that done to your own religion.
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Old 03-24-2008, 05:00 AM
 
Location: Ostend,Belgium....
8,820 posts, read 6,369,817 times
Reputation: 4886
People could get along if they just learned something about different religions, skincolors, sexual orientations, etc., Many are afraid of knowledge though, they might understand things better and stop those silly arguments...and that's a scary thought, isn't it?
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